Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...

 
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Old 03-06-2007, 10:12 AM   #1
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Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


Okay guys, I need your help here. I am bidding on a pole barn style storage building. Normally I don't need help estimating, but these days the bidding wars are tight so I need some input from guys who do big buildings like this. I am used to houses where we charge more per sq. ft.

Here are the details
300ft x 100 ft
Walls are 16 feet above grade with 2x4 purlins covered in metal siding

There are 32 overhead doors at 12' wide by 14 feet high
There are 35 man doors
about 75 post holes to dig 4 feet and drop in precast footers
trusses are mono's (50') set at 48 inch centers with 2x4 purlins at 24" centers.
The building is a basic rectangle
Metal roofing and siding are prefinished 26 guage screw down

G.C. wants a price for the framing, then a sep for the metal siding and roof.
He is also thinking about changing the roof to shingles meaning trusses at 24" centers, no purlins, but 1/2" o.s.b.
There is also a crap load of metal framing inside, but that is after they pour the floor and a second bid.
My opinion is $2 a sq.ft. for the framing, $200 a square for the siding, and $100 a square for the roofing.
I know without a print it is hard for you guys to give opinions, but I tried to nail it down pretty good.

Thanks in advance for all opinions on this matter.
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Old 03-06-2007, 10:34 AM   #2
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


I paid 1.75 per ft for a steel building to be erected 8000 sq ft. No post holes, all bolt together, but it included the siding and roof.

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Old 03-06-2007, 10:46 AM   #3
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


WoW maybe I am thinking too high... Anybody else ?
Was that just labor or materials included ?
Oh, and how tall were the walls? I am thinking the 16 foot high walls should help me get a little more $$
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Old 03-06-2007, 03:00 PM   #4
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


Got's ta turn in da bid tomorrow. Anybody else have any idea?
Thanks
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Old 03-06-2007, 06:06 PM   #5
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


We do erection for $4 a sq/ft, including sheeting the building...insulation is more, site and concrete is more....if we are more then 6000 sq/ft, I will negotiate......sometimes.
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Old 03-06-2007, 06:18 PM   #6
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


I will NEVER, for the life of me understand how you think anyone here is going to be able to give you a clue as to whether your numbers are right or not. Did you actually put any thought into this "$2/SF" number, or did you just pull it out of your ass? Why not $2.15/SF? How about $1.94/SF?

It never ceases to amaze me how people stay in business (or don't stay in business- which is easier for me to understand.....). I run the estimating department for a $180 million/year commercial GC/CM, and even with our deep database of past projects, we would NEVER throw out a number like you guys do- whether it was a $20,000 job or a $20 million job- the risks are just too great.

Bob
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Old 03-06-2007, 07:19 PM   #7
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


That was just labor. The walls were 12' eves. I used a good sub that gave me the price ahead of time.

I do agree with Bob just throwing a number in there is risky and someday will cost you. What I stated above were my numbers on one project use them at your own risk.
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Old 03-06-2007, 08:39 PM   #8
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Kovacs View Post
I will NEVER, for the life of me understand how you think anyone here is going to be able to give you a clue as to whether your numbers are right or not. Did you actually put any thought into this "$2/SF" number, or did you just pull it out of your ass? Why not $2.15/SF? How about $1.94/SF?

It never ceases to amaze me how people stay in business (or don't stay in business- which is easier for me to understand.....). I run the estimating department for a $180 million/year commercial GC/CM, and even with our deep database of past projects, we would NEVER throw out a number like you guys do- whether it was a $20,000 job or a $20 million job- the risks are just too great.

Bob
What are you talking about ??? I frame houses every day and go by the square foot.
I have framed pole barns before and the going rate was $2
I was checking to see if since this thing is so big if the price per sq. ft. drops.
So I guess you are saying I should just quit now and go work hourly for somebody ?? I was just asking a general OPINION.
And as a matter of fact YES I have put thought into it as to what fasteners will cost, what the bobcat, forklift, and crane will cost, and what I EXPECT my labor to run. But if all that comes to .45 a sq. ft. should I bid the job at .50 a sq. ft. when the G.C. is expecting a bid of $2 ?

Last edited by CheckmateOhio; 03-06-2007 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 03-06-2007, 08:48 PM   #9
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


Thank You very much SmithBuilt and joasis...Those were the things I was looking for. Looks like $2 for framing, $100 sq. for siding and $.50 for the roof should put me in good. I'm gonna call the G.C. tomorrow and tell him I just pulled the number out of my ass and it still smells.
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Old 03-06-2007, 09:27 PM   #10
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Kovacs View Post
I will NEVER, for the life of me understand how you think anyone here is going to be able to give you a clue as to whether your numbers are right or not. Did you actually put any thought into this "$2/SF" number, or did you just pull it out of your ass? Why not $2.15/SF? How about $1.94/SF?

It never ceases to amaze me how people stay in business (or don't stay in business- which is easier for me to understand.....). I run the estimating department for a $180 million/year commercial GC/CM, and even with our deep database of past projects, we would NEVER throw out a number like you guys do- whether it was a $20,000 job or a $20 million job- the risks are just too great.

Bob

Generally speaking, I agree that numbers do not mean a lot...region, wages, everything comes into play. However, the question was phrased as a general idea of pricing...and comparisons. What I bid for my company works for me...and I am not the lowest guy in the market. I bid based on experience, the customer, my workload, etc.

I got the impression Checkmate is merely shopping for ideas on the bid, based on the size of the building...and if I want the job, I will drop my sq/ft charge if the size of the building justifies it.

Now there is virtually no similarity in the size of company you work for, compared to smaller contractors, like myself, so again, the numbers won't mean much to you, but represent a great payday for me. Our last big steel building we averaged about $200 an hour for a crew of 3 (myself included) and my cost per hour was $40 or so.....not bad.
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Old 03-07-2007, 04:34 AM   #11
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


I agree with joasis. We are not a $180,000,000.00 a year company. and most of us don't have a seperate estimating department. The man was just asking a simple question to get some feedback from professionals who have been there. To make comments about how you don't understand how people stay in business is ridiculous, you are not in business so you wouldn't have any idea would you?

I have a big beef with people who shoot other people down instead of helping them out. Everyone here needs advice now and again, and to turn them down and suggest that they "pulled the number out of thier ass" is just wrong. I'm sure he has bid many successful projects. I've run a commercial construction company for the last 10 years and I always have to assess certain aspects of each project, and tweak the numbers, because every project is different, and prices do go up and down depending on the size and scope of the work. The man was simply trying to ask that since the walls were larger than normal, should he include extra in his price. and if $2/sqft is what he thinks is the rate he should bid it at than thats what it is, and i'm sure he didn't just pull it out of his ass.

You need to find some empathy inside yourself. Than pull it out your ass and apply it to your daily life.
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Old 03-07-2007, 05:53 AM   #12
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


Guys- relax- I understand there are huge differences in the way a $180 million company works and the way the companies run by the majority of the folks here work. At the same time, we all operate in a world where we need to understand our costs, and not be concerned with what "the going rate" is, because it's immaterial to what it costs to operate our companies.

Maybe the "pull it out of your ass" comment was a bit extreme, but it just strikes me as odd that everytime a $/SF cost gets tossed out here, it's always some even, round number- $1.25/SF to hang and tape drywall, $.75/SF for paint, etc- they numbers just sound so contrived that they appear to be throw out with little or no thought. The OP was not clear regarding how he had come up with his price, especially when he started his post with "I am used to houses where we charge more per sq. ft.", which makes him sound like so many builders I've found who just use an "$X/SF" price with no rhyme or reason for where the number comes from.

That being said, the main thing that got me going is actually the first paragraph of the OP's post:

"Okay guys, I need your help here. I am bidding on a pole barn style storage building. Normally I don't need help estimating, but these days the bidding wars are tight so I need some input from guys who do big buildings like this. I am used to houses where we charge more per sq. ft."

So what if the "bidding wars are tight"- if you know what it's going to cost you to produce the job, and that works out to $2/SF (which the OP has said he has calculated in detail), then that's what you need to charge! If the others are bidding the job at $1.75/SF "because the job is bigger", you're going to lose money at that price if your numbers show you still need to charge $2/SF.

That's my point of contention with these types of posts- guys drop in here with a "I'm thinking of charging $XX/SF for this work- whatta ya think?" questions, and expect to get an answer that will validate their concerns- that's ludicrous IMO.

And Mud Master- I've got plenty of empathy- that's what keeps me hanging around these boards and keeps me posting about the absurdity of many of these posts. Would you rather I just sit there and nod my head and give a "yup, sounds good ta me....." reply like so many others do here? My goal is to make people think about what their asking before using the forums as a crutch. If you guys want to use them as a pricing service, I'll be happy to go elsewhere where my input is appreciated.

Bob
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Old 03-07-2007, 06:05 AM   #13
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


No, it has nothing to do with what your objective is. And I am a advocate of tough love. It is just the way you came off, it was like you were attacking him. And there is a difference between using this site as a help-line, and as a crutch. I have a problem with people that call or email or post to other contractors, find out what the general going rate is, and than use it, that is just not good business. But if someone just has a legitimate question about his pricing than I have no problem helping the man or woman out.

Constructive critisism is great. And if someone can't take it than I believe they should grow a pair, or don't ask the question. I guess like I said I just took it as you were attacking him, and if I came off the same way to you, I apologize.
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Old 03-07-2007, 06:18 AM   #14
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


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Constructive critisism is great. And if someone can't take it than I believe they should grow a pair, or don't ask the question. I guess like I said I just took it as you were attacking him, and if I came off the same way to you, I apologize.
Ahhh...the beauty of the impersonal internet forum- no matter how many "lol"'s and smiley faces you use, you can't convey tone, sincerity, etc. Add to that the fact that so many people don't provide enough description/information in their posts to let you know where they're coming from, and it can be frustrating at times to read and reply to posts.

Anyway, no harm done and no need for an apology. We'll carry on!

Bob
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Old 03-07-2007, 06:44 AM   #15
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


I do have some insight to large firm estimating practices, and one of the methods they used was sales. We quoted X number of buildings for the sales staff, and the magic number was 10%. If we didn't sell 10% of what we quoted, the prices dropped...if we sold more, the prices went up. Now where they got the 10% figure, I have no idea, but that was the number we used.

My little company doesn't do a million a year....but I do know that when my work load is high, I am not apt to give any breaks on pricing....if I was looking at being without a job to head to, and I need to keep the schedule loaded so we make a living, the price is negotiable...to secure the job.

I know where you were coming from Bob....I would do the same but in this case....it wasn't like a typical "what do you charge for?"
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Old 03-07-2007, 07:15 PM   #16
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


Quote:
Originally Posted by CheckmateOhio View Post
...Looks like $2 for framing, $100 sq. for siding and $.50 for the roof should put me in good...
I hope you get the job, and I hope you make money.

That's my 1.978463 cents worth, and I didn't just pull that number out of my elbow either.
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Old 07-14-2008, 08:07 PM   #17
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


wow you do 180 million is business, what do you want a pat on hte back, it looks like you do that good enough yourself, and if you werent so busy working for the man, you might have to bid some things by the sq. ft. , but you are big macho million daollar salary man, well if it makes you feel better to cut others down for trying to get info on construction on a site that is designed for just that, well i guess it's worth it.....to u
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Old 07-14-2008, 08:15 PM   #18
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


wow, us lowly peasants deal in $/sq.ft., don't yoiu understand that these sq. ft. numbers are a starting point or general idea for those who may be bidding something they have not bid b4, when i bid something like that i do want to know the going rate averages, because i usually split the diff. between my estimates of labor for the work and the going rate, it makes no sense to bid with less information however meaningless you think it is, remember some of own our own small construction companies that depend on these jobs for survival, not everyone works for some giant company that has it all figured out like u and your 180 mil.
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Old 07-14-2008, 08:18 PM   #19
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


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Old 07-14-2008, 10:06 PM   #20
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Re: Need Ballpark For Pole Building Labor...


Quote:
Originally Posted by dkillianjr View Post
I'll see your

and raise you a "WTF? I go through all the aggravation to register for a forum only to post absurd attacks on a dead and ancient thread."

Why is it that this is not the first time I've seen this happen around here....hmmm...

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