Surface Popping

 
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Old 03-14-2010, 03:48 PM   #1
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Surface Popping


A friend of mine recently had a basment floor as well as a garage floor poured this winter.

He has little pops on the surface of the concrete. Does anyone know what this could be from.

Someone was sure that it was from the rock used in the concrete being to porous or something. Any thoughts?

I definitely don't want to run into this on one of my jobs and would really like to figure it out.

Thanks
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Old 03-14-2010, 04:00 PM   #2
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Re: Surface Popping


I believe it is spalding. Water gets in the concrete freezes and causes the surface to pop. Here we get it a lot from people driving on their driveways with out shoveling the snow off.

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Old 03-14-2010, 07:04 PM   #3
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Re: Surface Popping


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencer View Post
A friend of mine recently had a basment floor as well as a garage floor poured this winter.

He has little pops on the surface of the concrete. Does anyone know what this could be from.

Someone was sure that it was from the rock used in the concrete being to porous or something. Any thoughts?

I definitely don't want to run into this on one of my jobs and would really like to figure it out.

Thanks
Hard to tell without any pictures, sounds like that the mix you used had alot of small stones (no8 or smaller). When you hand trowel small stone mix with a 6%-8% air you can create small popouts, I would use a good 30% solid sealer in the garage, the basment I would seal if you are not covering it with anything, use a water base sealer and back roll. Hope this helps!
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Old 03-14-2010, 08:45 PM   #4
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Re: Surface Popping


What your friend is having is called scaling. There are many reasons why scaling occurs. Obviously the end result is due to the freeze thaw cylce and salt. When water is absored and it freezes it expands and raises the pressure, then off the top comes. But it starts way before that such as.... When the concrete was poured it could have been to high of a slump which mean the water to cement ratio was to high (normal residential is .45). Also it should have had 3-6% air in it. All this comes together in this way. If the water-cement ratio is to high the cement granules are to far apart to grab ahold of one another and become strong. This also means that the air bubbles in the concrete are now farther apart which makes the concrete more pourus and lets more water/salt to be absored into the concrete. Also finishing operations could have been completed to soon and the contractors trapped moisture in the top of the concrete.Another big factor could be inproper curing. There are several factors that cause scaling. The freeze thaw cycle is a killer. Hopefully i could help
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:42 AM   #5
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Re: Surface Popping


Quote:
Originally Posted by beretta13 View Post
What your friend is having is called scaling. There are many reasons why scaling occurs. Obviously the end result is due to the freeze thaw cylce and salt. When water is absored and it freezes it expands and raises the pressure, then off the top comes. But it starts way before that such as.... When the concrete was poured it could have been to high of a slump which mean the water to cement ratio was to high (normal residential is .45). Also it should have had 3-6% air in it. All this comes together in this way. If the water-cement ratio is to high the cement granules are to far apart to grab ahold of one another and become strong. This also means that the air bubbles in the concrete are now farther apart which makes the concrete more pourus and lets more water/salt to be absored into the concrete. Also finishing operations could have been completed to soon and the contractors trapped moisture in the top of the concrete.Another big factor could be inproper curing. There are several factors that cause scaling. The freeze thaw cycle is a killer. Hopefully i could help
Air should be 6%-8% on slabs exposed to freeze thaw not 3%-6%.Unless you have a lean mix you can have a min of 3% NOT for richer mixes like 6 sac,6 1/2sac,7sac,etc. Aci guide line allows 6% + or - 2%, it depend on the mix.

Last edited by CONCRETE MIKE; 03-16-2010 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 03-15-2010, 12:49 PM   #6
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Re: Surface Popping


It could also be due to AAR Pop-out due to Alkali Aggregate Reactions. A picture of what your talking about would really help. AAR Pop-Out happens when the Alkali in the aggregate is too high and is reacting with the concrete and literlay causes the stone to bust apart and causes a pop out on the concrete. Here is a picture of such a occurance.
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Old 03-15-2010, 01:46 PM   #7
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Re: Surface Popping


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It could also be due to AAR Pop-out due to Alkali Aggregate Reactions. A picture of what your talking about would really help. AAR Pop-Out happens when the Alkali in the aggregate is too high and is reacting with the concrete and literlay causes the stone to bust apart and causes a pop out on the concrete. Here is a picture of such a occurance.
You are correct but i will also add internal pressure and dirty aggreate can cause that also.Delamination can cause something similar to scalling or popouts also.

Last edited by CONCRETE MIKE; 03-16-2010 at 02:00 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 03-15-2010, 01:48 PM   #8
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Re: Surface Popping


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencer View Post
A friend of mine recently had a basment floor as well as a garage floor poured this winter.

He has little pops on the surface of the concrete. Does anyone know what this could be from.

Someone was sure that it was from the rock used in the concrete being to porous or something. Any thoughts?

I definitely don't want to run into this on one of my jobs and would really like to figure it out.

Thanks
If there are multiple small hole throughout your pour i can almost bet it was from small stones in the mix and the hand trowel applied. Also if he used calcium and it was not mixed well that can also show pin holes.
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Old 03-15-2010, 05:58 PM   #9
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Re: Surface Popping


He said this was a basement and a garage floor, 3%air is fine for this pour. If you pour 8%air in a garage or basement I would love to hear what the finisher had to say to you when he is finishing the floor. 6-8% is fine for an outside driveway but not a garage floor or basement.
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Old 03-15-2010, 06:37 PM   #10
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Re: Surface Popping


Quote:
Originally Posted by beretta13 View Post
He said this was a basement and a garage floor, 3%air is fine for this pour. If you pour 8%air in a garage or basement I would love to hear what the finisher had to say to you when he is finishing the floor. 6-8% is fine for an outside driveway but not a garage floor or basement.
You are correct, but I can bet that he ordered a mix for a outside slab on grade because the floors were not total enclosed. He is not a floor contractor that reduced the air for finishability.
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Old 03-15-2010, 06:41 PM   #11
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Re: Surface Popping


That is why there is pin holes in the concrete with small stones. When I pour floors I reduce the air for that reason, and it sucks to finish floors with air that is 6%-8%.

Last edited by CONCRETE MIKE; 03-15-2010 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 03-15-2010, 08:59 PM   #12
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Re: Surface Popping


I totally agree mike
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Old 03-16-2010, 07:35 PM   #13
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Re: Surface Popping


So what percent air would you guys have ordered for an average winter pour when lo's would definitely get below freezing for a garage floor and also for a basement floor.

I'm ashamed to say but air% is something that I am just learning about. I appreciate your willingness to share your experience.
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Old 03-16-2010, 07:37 PM   #14
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Re: Surface Popping


After a lot of study and internet searching I've come to the conclusion that this guy got a bad mix with aggregate that was too porous.

He has pops randomly so I don't feel I can blame the finish guys. Seems like if they would have over finished, the whole surface would be coming off, not just random pops.

Could it be tha they didn't keep it blanketed long enough? If so, how long would you have kept blankets on it?
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Old 03-16-2010, 07:46 PM   #15
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Re: Surface Popping


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencer View Post
So what percent air would you guys have ordered for an average winter pour when lo's would definitely get below freezing for a garage floor and also for a basement floor.

I'm ashamed to say but air% is something that I am just learning about. I appreciate your willingness to share your experience.
I would ask your redi mix supplier, i cut my air but I also test it on site to make sure it is good, with winter pours exposed to the outside elements I would stick to a 6% air. The finishablity is harder but you will have enough air for the freeze thaw, make sure you cure for seven days with heaters and or blankets, make sure you ventilate if using heaters because you can cause carbonation on your floor. I would go to a 60-40 mix, cut the small stone down,it will help.

Last edited by CONCRETE MIKE; 03-17-2010 at 08:20 AM.
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Old 03-16-2010, 08:00 PM   #16
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Re: Surface Popping


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencer View Post
After a lot of study and internet searching I've come to the conclusion that this guy got a bad mix with aggregate that was too porous.

He has pops randomly so I don't feel I can blame the finish guys. Seems like if they would have over finished, the whole surface would be coming off, not just random pops.

Could it be tha they didn't keep it blanketed long enough? If so, how long would you have kept blankets on it?
Post some pictures here, take about four, then let us on contractors talk try to see if we can come to a solution for you. It is hard to trouble shoot concrete without pictures.
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Old 03-31-2010, 06:54 PM   #17
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Re: Surface Popping


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Originally Posted by CONCRETE MIKE View Post
I would ask your redi mix supplier, i cut my air but I also test it on site to make sure it is good, with winter pours exposed to the outside elements I would stick to a 6% air. The finishablity is harder but you will have enough air for the freeze thaw, make sure you cure for seven days with heaters and or blankets, make sure you ventilate if using heaters because you can cause carbonation on your floor. I would go to a 60-40 mix, cut the small stone down,it will help.
I don't have any pics right now but I will try to get some.

What do you do to test your air on site?
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Old 04-04-2010, 11:50 AM   #18
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Re: Surface Popping


I can't believe no one used the term chert here. It happens, and it sucks. I think redimix suppliers here are allowed 5%

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