Has Anyone Heard Of This Ezfoamulator? By Spraymax

TomHay

Try to live your life without Urethane. From Car Bumpers to packaging of a Human Heart, never has a single product had so many uses.

joasis

So instead of saying "Urethane", why not try living your life without plastics, or oil....that is a red herring argument my friend.

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TomHay

I do everything I can to live without oil the Diesel Engine was invented by a man named Diesel to run on Peanut Oil, there was no Diesel Fuel when he invented it. Without modifacations todays Diesels will run on
.40 cent a Gal oil such as Soy or Castor. You used to be able to run them on used McDonalds etc Cooking oil but they now sell it rather then pay to have it disguarded.

joasis

So can you live without plastic?

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TomHay

Matter of fact, I can. Some of my new formulations are not in the Plastic Family, genericly, one of a kind. I am giving a school on them this weekend, wanta come?

joasis

No thanks. I actually admire the process....I just think the jury is still out on the long term effects of a total sealing envelope of a home.

I do fight the public acceptance when it comes to advances in technology, like we face with ICF's, which I do a few a year. I install steel roofs with reflective insulation on these structures, and you might be amazed at the traditionalists that oppose this at every turn.

We tool a serious look at getting into spray foam....the other aspects fascinate me....building swimming pools with ICF blocks and sealing them with the plural polyeurea spray system.....the ability to give ICF's a stucco look with the same process. The downside is the cost of the material, and the thin margins in the insulation business.

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TomHay

You are quite correct, a complete envelope is impossible, you could not breath.

Present day Polyurea can not be used in things like todays swimming pools. Crazy as it sounds the Chlorine would attack it. For salt water, no problem.

I used to MFG Urethane Panels. Today many are going with SIP with Urethane foam as it is very inexpensive. The entire panel uses the Urethane Foam as a single matrix like a stress skin panel with incredible strength to weight.

I have been in Foam since 1967 as a laborer and first generation Polyurea since the early 80's when it was considered a Rim Spray.

I love multi components, they were the first and maybe only thing I was realy good at.

TomHay

Jay, please take the time to read this from a blog I wrote, it gives very good detail on plural component equipment. Thanks.

I am going to try to break down spraying with a multi component pump to break it down simple. Please think of a typical airless sprayer. You have an upper ball, a lower ball and upper and lower packings. This pump can be driven by an Air Motor, Electric motor or Hydraulic pump. As the pump goes up and down the balls move up and down accordingly and then close off on a seat giving a seal. This creates pressure. If one of the balls do not seat, you lose pressure. This can be caused by debris getting in between the seat or the ball sticking to the seat. Simple right?

With a multi component pump (a 1-1 ratio is being used for this writing) you have two of the exact size pumps connected to the one motor making them go up and down at the same time giving both equal ratio and equal pressure. From the two pumps your material goes through two separate Heaters and travels through two separate heated hoses to the spray gun.
When pulling the trigger of the gun the two materials meet go through a mixing chamber in gun and come out the front in either a round or flat pattern. When you release the trigger depending on what gun you are using the materials will be blocked from flowing or meeting together and material in the mixing chamber will be blown out by air, pushed out by a rod or cleaned by a squirt of solvent coming from another pump. This again depends on your gun of choice.

In the area your heated hose assembly goes to the heaters you will have a pressure gauge on each heater. Your gauges should read an equal number, say 1,500 PSI at each unit. Sometimes the gauges will be naturally a little off due to failure in mfg or due to viscosity. Let’s say one reads 1,550 PSI and the other reads 1,450 PSI. If those figures stay common on every dual pump stroke most would deem this acceptable.

The A side commonly referred to as Iso is usually the biggest problem creator. The reason for this is Iso reacts with moisture. If any moisture, even vapor gets into you’re A Side drum it will cause a reaction known as crystallizing. This looks very much like mixing a two part epoxy together, letting it cure and smashing it into little pieces. When you’re A side pump travels up and down it can pick up these little chunks. If it does you have a good chance a piece will get stuck in one of your ball areas not allowing the ball to seat. When this happens you will lose pressure on the A side gauge and you will no longer be spraying 1 -1 your gauge on the A side will drop to say 1,000 PSI and your B side gauge will read 2,000 PSI. If this happens you have changed the chemical makeup of the finished product you are spraying. At this time you must remove any material applied when this happened and fix the A side pump (please keep in mind the B Side can pick up debris causing the same effect and give exact opposite readings).

Over a period of time the inner lining of your hose on the A side and create a crystallized skin. As the hose moves around little particles can break loose and flow to the screen on the A side of your gun. As more crystals get to the screen (filter) your gauges again will start an off reading. You will go to say 1,600 on A side and 1,400 on B Side as the screen clogs more your readings will keep changing, A side 1,800 PSI, B side 1,200 PSI and keep changing until all you are spraying is gook. Any material sprayed from the time the gauges went from 1,600 PSI to 1,400 PSI must be removed, you cannot spray good material over bad, you will not achieve adhesion from the non 1-1 material as it will never cure right and will eventually cause a blister of multiple blisters on the surface.

The A Side Iso can also crystallize on your upper pump shaft. When this happens it will slice through you upper packings so you lose your seal. This again can and will cause the pressures to change, this is where you will have to take the A Side pump apart clean the shaft and insert new packings.

Your gun will at some point not seal right and you will have droplets of either A Side or B Side dropping on your surface. As you spray over this it is uncured material which again will blister over time.

It takes a shorter time to fix or prevent these things from occurring then it does trying to fix the substrate later.

healthyhomes

Was this copied and pasted from the spraymax website?

I understand you wanting to promote foams seeing as though you have devoted your career to it. But you have to logically approach the objections.

There are a quite a few gray areas concerning foam, it's proper use, it's proper method of install, and my local property planning and development office is skeptical of it in residential applications. They just VERY recently changed the rules regarding applying a 6mil vapour barrier over the closed cell product. Alot of the inspectors are very skeptical about this because they fear that moisture can to easily linger in the wall cavity in front of the foam layer, and seeing as though the wall is not breathable it is trapped.

I am a general contractor, not an insulation expert. I am simply trying to get some advice from people who will logically approach both sides.

If it is properly handled and sprayed, I believe it is safe. The two major issues for me personally are:

1. How will homes this tightly sealed perfom, and is there going to be a need to RELY on mechanical systems?

2. What happens in the future when these foam houses need to be renovated, or demolished? What a pain in the butt that would be!

I really do like the stuff.. we use it in all are joist ends, and directly on basement walls. For me, thats where it stops for now

There is one thing that foam can't control is radiant heat loss.. so I guess a bit of heat escapes!

AaronB.

If the moisture got into the closed cell spray foam wall cavity, then why wouldnt it be able to get out? Seems logical.

I have no problems with polyureas. They have made me very successful. What are the issues you have had with polyureas, Joasis?

51/2 inches of cellulose, fiberglass, rock wool is only what? R 15 aged? I agree that resi foam is very slim profit margins. Keep the insulators spraying open cell, I say.

Joasis, you really should look into who youre talking to, my man.

Jay, Tom owns the spraymaxliner site, so he is copying his own blog.

Did you know there are foams that dont burn, and can actually extinguish fire that comes in contact with it?

So much that people that are talking dont know.

Why would anyone worry about chemical smells? that dissipates quickly. Who said they smelled the foam fumes and it burned? LOL I have inhaled it many times and it has never burned... not once. LMAO You guys are killing me.

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joasis

So, I can respect the man without buying into the product.

I have doubts about the overall use of foam in residential construction...you don't? Then great. I also know a few of the guys who own different ICF manufacturing companies....does that make their opinions more relevant then those of us, Like Chris and I, that build the homes?

The original question was should a guy buy an entry level machine. My opinion remains the same, no. That is an opinion Aaron. I remember you having an opinion that you were "pumped" because you were paying all the premiums just to stay in business......and now you seem to have changed gears.

To sum it up, I like spray foam, I won't pay the additional cost of it at this time for new construction, unless it is specified for what we are doing. I believe as the product becomes more accepted, it will earn a greater market, and if it becomes competitive, then we may have another look at it....but not right now.

BTW Tom, I have seen a few IFC pools sprayed with polyurea...I think they are salt systems, but they in fact are working. Is this a different product? I was under the impression that once a polyurethane product sets, it is impervious to water and light chemical solutions, and was in essence, the same as the truck bed liners.

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parts

That's what the said about asbestos not saying that foam will be the same just that that's not good claim in the insulation business looking at the history of it.

TomHay

The nice thing about Spraymax is you don't have to buy a machine. The EZ Foamulator is the 2nd step up from the FastKick Gun which makes it impossible to spray off ratio (not 1-1) material. No material actualy goes through the FastKick so there is no clean up and no parts to buy.

Now, on moisture content in foam. All Foams have a Perm rating, they are not vapor barriers. Foam works exactly like the human skin, it allows water vapor out without letting solid water in. The proper placement of any vapor barrier is on the warm side so because there is a summer and winter you would need a vapor barrier on both sides. Let us not fool ourselves by thinking that tacking up some visqueen will do it as when you penetrate the visqueen with staple or nail you break the vapor barrier. You could use Polyurea seamless on both sides but at what cost?

To worry of a small vapor in foam and not be concerned about the large amounts of water found in other non closed cell insulations that are breeding spots for mold and make the insulation loose all its R Factor makes no sense to me.

Polyurea is used as secondary containment. It is uneffected by the strongest acids and oils. Chlorine is but one of only a few things that will effect Polyurea but we do have some thin film products you can apply over the polyurea to overcome other things.

I come from the State of Florida. In our State a General Contractor can not do roofs unless he took his test before 1972. I elected to take my roofing, insulation, electric, waterproofing (I took and passed 7 tests) that a GC is not qualified to do so kindly stop waving a GC licence around like a flag, many States don't even require a test to be one.

In closing I spent 40 years as a Urethane Foam contractor, there was no choice B with what I did. I started in the early days where success was solely based on what you did as the products we speak of had a little to no track record. At todays posting there are applications down 40 plus years.

My Late Dad, who was a GC fought a similar fight in his lifetime. He was a pioneer in both DryWall (which no one of that time thought it could overcome Plaster) and radiant heat.

Everyone as an individual has choice. You can choose not to apply or have applied products such as foam. The world however has gone green crazy, a simple Web Search will give absolute proof of this. There are presently 2 Prsident Mandates still in effect on the use of green. This is the reason Cannon came out with Soy ink print cartridges, no one uses printers more then goverment. Future home buyers will be looking strongly into things like envelopes and green products for upping both resale value and ability to make a profit to sell their home. When buying older homes of even say 5 years they will be calculating how much they will have to spend to make an envelope and to reinsulate.

You have choice and can bicker all you want. I heard in my 40 years of contracting how foam was not going to make it all the time. I had a minumum of 6 months backlog at all times and all my machines could spray 132 LBS per minute (no that is not a missprint). Be very carefull though, like in my Late Faters day overcoming plaster some product might come up and bite you in the butt.

joasis

Let's try this again....if it is your specialty, then great. I have fought the same battle over ICF's and I understand more then you think I do. The market and rules in Florida are not the same market we live with in the great plains. Pretty simple.

You can profess the benefits of foam all day long, and still miss why many of us do not use it. It is tough to sell to customers. I can imagine you will say it is up to us to "educate" them, but buddy, I don't buy it myself completely. It is bad enough to sell an ICF home over a stick built as it is.

Now, back to the OP. I still wouldn't do it at this time...will that satisfy some of you? If you wish to take the risk, then by all means...this is only an internet forum, and we won't make or break a business here...we can only share experiences. Oklahoma still has a pretty healthy new construction market going on, and no matter what the Al Gore, political winds are blowing or "mandates" for green building are, less then 2% of homes get the spray foam...it is primarily used in commercial applications and roofs here.

If some of you think this is just a few of us thick skinned, won't accept change idiots here, then consider that while we are fighting for our very survival in business right now, I am not going to tell someone that in addition to $1.35 a board foot for closed cell insulation, they still get to pay for cellulose or batts.....and the energy savings may be a penny/per sq/ft. per month in Oklahoma. At $20 a month, the payback will take a while, and if it is not being widely done, it does not have market acceptance.

Is this clear now?

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healthyhomes

Tom, why is there only a 90 day warranty on the ezfoamulator, and not a 1 year like most other plural component machines?

There is no need to take such a defensive position. I am simply on the quest for information. Like I said, I am not an insulation expert. I am a business owner, and a licensed carpenter. I didn't realize you owned spraymax, now it makes sense!

I have already decided Im going to purchase something to do my basement walls, and joist ends with. Although it is a major price difference, I am torn between a graco e20 setup, and your product. When I first saw your product I LOVED it. The only thing my accountant actually mentioned was " Be careful, it looks very homemade, short warranty, and no real reviews as it is so new"

I still tend to dis-agree with him. Some of the best oppurtunities have been realized on taking a chance. Anyhow, no reason to defend yourself Tom. Like I said, just trying to make a decision! Love your products though!

Grumpy

The only thing I would like to add is that if your house is burning who cares what the foam in the insulation and ceiling are doing, you've got bigger problems. I'm planning on spraying in foam insulation in my walls on one room in my house when I remodel it in the coming weeks. Why? simply for the higher R value.

I know my reply didn't add much value to this thread, and I am not an insulation contractor however I have to add one more thing: I make real good money when I do attic insulation. And finally anyone doing new construction is hurting regardless of trade or preferred application products.

TomHay

Joasis, lets go over the home you try to sell. The gain is in the walls then any envelope is lost in ceiling area without an SPF envelope. I don't expect you to educate people or try to sell it, your son bought into the ground newspaper industry. You post about Green as if its a fad yet I bet you were not thrilled with fuel over $4 a Gal. You went on a witch hunt trying to find bad things about SPF but could not. I post 1 of 10,973 bad listings on celuloise, you have a fit. Please post the link to show the figures of 5% to back up what you say because I am betting lunch you can't and made the figures up.

Happy, we have a true 90 day warranty and honor it. This is better then a one year, sorry, you screwed up when you put materials in warranty. If you feel the machine looks home made I think you would feel more secure with a Graco. I am not here spamming, just defending an industry from people who know nothing of a product yet try to hurt an industry by giving false information.

joasis

You totally missed the point Tom, and you stick with selling your spray foam machines....according to you, they cannot be built fast enough to keep up with demand. I will continue to build things and make a living, I hope, and try to avoid attacking your product.

You talk about the home I build with ICF's and how if I don't use an spf product, all is lost. Are you an engineer? Do you have a degree in construction technology and have you published any articles that we may read in the trade magazines?

The real world numbers it takes to condition the air in a home are the end result we are shooting for. If you don't like cellulose, great. I don't give a crap. Posting an opinion piece to say that insulators are liars and cheating the industry means this: I have no time for an arrogant ass like you, now or later. I tried to steer this thread to a discussion mode and actually present both sides for opinions, and you have pretty much ended that. Being a roofing contractor in Florida and preaching the spray foam benefit fits you....keep it up. When you can talk to me about the actual expenses of home construction, and how you add something like this with a questionable value and sell it to a potential client, then I am listening...until then, my opinion remains unchanged.

I have said this like 4 times now...to the OP< I wouldn't buy the machine, but now I will add that if you don't, Tom Hays is convinced you are as dumb as the rest of us general contractors. Selling it won't matter....intelligence will sell it.

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TomHay

Joasis, you come on a thread about a machine my company manufacturers that sprays a product that my company manufacturers and start bashing both to death and now take to swearing at me.

The only true facts you present about Spray Urethane Foam is it needs a good education on said equipment to operate it while any common idiot can install Celulois.

This is why manufacturers offer training. Some posters on here are at a school I am giving this weekend which is both free and no they can not buy an EZ Foamulator at it as we are sold out.

Do you bash everything or just things you do not do?

theroofinggod

I also think that the foam is the way to go for insulating especially,and definitely a better product than the cellulose option,being able to market yourself or not,has no bearing on the overall quality of the system,as far as fire:fire retardant just means it`s slower to burn,and spray foam has non flammable formulations

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