Foam insulation - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

parts · 01-27-2009, 08:59 PM

I always wonder why there are so many foam rigs on ebay at least ten every time I check are they that hard to maintain or is the money just not there?

**joasis** · 01-27-2009, 09:10 PM

I think both reasons.

A few years ago, I talked to a guy about buying a rig, and he said it was a tough sell.....and he guessed if the foam didn't make it this time in the market, it wouldn't be back. The maintenance of the equipment, plus the expense of keeping the materials, and very little negotiating room on price makes it tough....plus, there are still industry problems and the unknown. What will be the long term effects of tightly sealing up a home? The added expense of air exchangers? How about trapping moisture in cavities?

We only do cellulose, or rather, I gave the insulation business to my son, and unless something new comes along that we need the ability to spray polyurea, like swimming pools, and then spray foam would be secondary, I doubt we will ever look again at a spray foam system.

Chris Johnson · 01-27-2009, 09:17 PM

I deal with one guy and he has to travel all over the northern part of the state to make money since the market is small for his product. So I would assume that with the extra cost over traditional insulation the guys selling rigs are not willing to devote all the necessary extra time to that business...and I can't blame them.

I know cleaning the equipment is a regular full time job, so it has to be added to the cost of doing business.

parts · 01-27-2009, 09:22 PM

I figured as much. I only blow cellulose also foam scares me a little dealing with so many chemicals and potential problems as well as the cost. Even the soy based stuff I am unsure of

**joasis** · 01-27-2009, 09:41 PM

I think there is a point when a home is sealed too tightly. Energy efficiency is one thing, death by toxic air is another.

Chris Johnson · 01-27-2009, 09:59 PM

You ever notice kids get more sick these days, staying at home playing video games, etc. We rarely got sick as kids...we were outside all the time, so yes there is truth to what J is saying about death by toxic air.

parts · 01-28-2009, 06:48 AM

I'm not sure if it's just the fact that the house is too tight or the fact that most home owners and builders wimp out when it comes to air to air heat exchangers and other venting and just make the house super tight

wheeler · 02-09-2009, 06:36 AM

everything in moderation and right now foam is a craze. was at the bulider's show in vegas this year and my guess is that about a 3rd of the booths were foam vendors.

my opinion is that houses need to breath naturally. commercial buildings cannot do this, so they breath mechanically. they pay the price and legionella happens. foaming everything so you can heat the house with a candle is an enormous mistake. bad for the house, your health and eventually your wallet.

we doing a major renovation on a beach house in connecticut right now. not quite those florida / georgia winds up here but when it blows in the winter its a cold and wet hammer. plan is to foam the existing rim joist of basement to r-19; vent board from soffit to ridge; leave the existing 1st alone which is bat; apply 1" x 2# closed cell to the roof and 2nd floor exterior walls which are new; and conventional r-30 bat / r-19 bat over the foam.

not exactly sure what r you end up with, we're scrunching the bat when we add the 1" foam and in my humble opinion the foam is an expensive house wrap to placate the owner-rep's fanaticism for foam of some kind. maybe its a better wrap but if it were my house, i'd go with structurally insulated panels on the roof, wrap the entire house, and bat the walls. architect likes that idea but owner-rep is high on foam.

parts · 02-11-2009, 04:28 PM

Just look at the MSDS for soy foam it seems a bit much to deal with
http://www.soythane.com/?q=node/3

**joasis** · 02-11-2009, 04:48 PM

BTW, where is the energy savings if you must mechanically introduce "fresh" air into a home...more systems, more energy.....less overall savings.

AaronB. · 02-13-2009, 02:45 AM

But but but why couldnt you open your windows when weather allows and change your HVAC filters to get rid of all that nasty particulate matter?

The entire theory of sealing a house up too tight leaves out the fact that there are also windows and doors that allow fresh air in when opened during favorable weather.

Don't be scared of foam, guys. The resi market is absolutely geared toward King CHEAP up front.

With the rising cost of energy to heat and cool, the payback from foam is rapidly decreasing.

Our foam rig is not too difficult to maintain. You just have to be professional and know what youre doing. Mechanical aptitude helps a lot.

SLSTech · 02-13-2009, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joasis

BTW, where is the energy savings if you must mechanically introduce "fresh" air into a home...more systems, more energy.....less overall savings.

Joasis - foam insulation pretty much guarantees you that you need to install an ERV or HRV depending on your climate. However, so does ICF's, and any house properly insulated & buttoned up properly.

The savings come from running the AC & Heater less. The ERV & HRV run a simple little fan which is about equivalent to leaving a light on. Yes there are many different types out there - but I am talking about a simple stand alone system good for up to 1600+ SF house.

The real problem comes from all the moisture, particulates, etc... in the house. Running a system eliminates those issues & introduces fresh air from outside that is brought up to almost the same temperature as the inside.

**joasis** · 02-13-2009, 11:59 AM

We have not built an ICF home that required air exchangers yet, and I have not personally had one foamed, and probably will not.

Guys, I am not dead set against spray foam. It may be part of my new home, depending on the end design, but I still see problems with the use of it. What about the issues of how to deal with remodel work when foam is in place? That is one.....the cost is a real issue. The moisture issues mat still be something to come up, and while I have not located the technical piece I read on this awhile back, there are some health concerns yet to be addressed.

Anyone that like foam, be my guest....these are only opinions. My son may end up with a spray foam rig and be a disciple of this someday, but at present, with the economy being like it is, and acceptance by the public low in this area, it is a tough sell.

SLSTech · 02-13-2009, 12:31 PM

Joasis, maybe I worded it wrong, but any house built today really needs some sort of ventilation with the outside. In an ICF house - there is no outside air getting in, it's almost impossible unless it is coming in through the roof. Your son's company properly installing the insulation (which I know it is) is almost airtight to. All the houses today, built properly need some form of an ERV or HRV.

The top three ways for building a house resulting in lower AC Bills, etc... are ICF, Foam & then blown in cellulose. Trust me I rather have an ICF house before a traditionally framed one, but that is not an option where I am at.

Based off the costs - I think your son got into the best area right now, in a few years, he might consider foam but I would let the market settle itself out first.

Is that clearer or was I just rambling?

**joasis** · 02-13-2009, 12:57 PM

We have actually "cheated" on the exchange of air. One of the homes we built that has 2100 sq/ft of conditioned space and has utilities averaging $50 a month. We simply drew a 4 inch line from the attic gable to the intake of the furnace. The state inspector loved it....although I still think it is a little shady.

I think a home needs to "breath"....to some degree. The problem as I see it is the further north you are, the opportunity to actually be shut up in a home for days could be a problem. The normal traffic in and out of a home would probably insure some fresh air in any home.

woodchuck2 · 02-16-2009, 01:34 PM

There is a company here who has 4 trucks/trailers going steady so there is a demand for it here. I find it a problem where you make the home so air tight that you need to install a fresh air system, kind of defeats the purpose IMO. Like said above, a home should be able to breathe. Me being an electrician can also say that fishing wires through this insulation tends to be a PITA!!!!

JohnS · 10-11-2009, 03:08 PM

As long as spray foam is properly outfitted in the building envelope there is no reason why it can't be installed and perform at levels that can easily see a reduction of 50% energy savings over standard insulation methods.