why is latex paint peeling?? - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Zeebo · 12-08-2005, 08:44 PM

Hi guys. I need a quick lesson about why my latex ceilng paint is peeling. The ceiling that I painted already had one coat of while flat latex paint on it. The customer wanted me to clean it up and paint it once with one coat of white flat latex. I used Glidden Ultra hide flat white. Prior to painting I sanded the ceiling. No dirt or grease or anything else. Looked clean.

After applying the white paint, I suddenly noticed that some areas started to bubble. When the paint dried, some areas (the size being 4 inch x 4 inch) starting peeling.

I took my knife to the affected areas and my paint just peeled off very easily. Not sure if the original coat was coming off too.

What could be the cause? Was my paint bad? Dirty / greasy areas (doubtful of this). There was no humidity. Original coat poor quality paint???

I never did check to see if the original coat was oil as customer said he painted it 3-5 years ago with latex. However, it shouldn't matter if it was oil as it was flat....and my understanding is that it is ok to use latex flat on oil flat without primer (maybe that's another thread).

Your exper advice is needed (is as always...is appreciated)

Zeebo

**ProWallGuy** · 12-08-2005, 09:15 PM

The answer is hiding behind this line:

"Not sure if the original coat was coming off too."

This needs to be determined to see which layer failed, then work backwards as to why.

Zeebo · 12-08-2005, 09:31 PM

ok...let me ask 2 things....

If my layer was the only one the failed.....what are the more common reasons for failure??

If it was the original layer that failed...whatare the more commom reasons?? Probably poor paint or non primer use??

Zeebo

**ProWallGuy** · 12-08-2005, 10:14 PM

My first impression would be:

"Prior to painting I sanded the ceiling."

Dust is the #1 adhesion killer in my book. If the sanding residue was not removed prior to painting, your layer could fail quickly. Many years ago, I used a pump sprayer and 12" knife to remove some popcorn texture. Felt fairly smooth, so I painted it. By the next morning, a lot of bubbles had popped up all over the ceiling. I could literally peel the paint off in sheets. On the back of the sheets of paint, was the dust residue.

Look at the sample of paint that failed. Check the back for debris, dust, or any sparkly stuff. This is a good place to start to find the cause of failure.

Same goes for the original layer if it also peeled off.

AAPaint · 12-08-2005, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProWallGuy

My first impression would be:

"Prior to painting I sanded the ceiling."

Dust is the #1 adhesion killer in my book. If the sanding residue was not removed prior to painting, your layer could fail quickly. Many years ago, I used a pump sprayer and 12" knife to remove some popcorn texture. Felt fairly smooth, so I painted it. By the next morning, a lot of bubbles had popped up all over the ceiling. I could literally peel the paint off in sheets. On the back of the sheets of paint, was the dust residue.

Look at the sample of paint that failed. Check the back for debris, dust, or any sparkly stuff. This is a good place to start to find the cause of failure.

Same goes for the original layer if it also peeled off.

Ding, ding, ding! Give that man a prize!

Zeebo · 12-09-2005, 07:11 PM

ok...just tried painting the other ceiling with white flat latex...with new different latex paint that I bought to experiment and to rule out that it was the paint. Same thing happened. Some bubbling and peeling in some areas...the size of a banana. This time my paint and the original coating came off...right down to the plaster.

I do not think it is dust that caused my problem

So what do you think it is?? Your opinion would be appreciated.

Zeebo

**slickshift** · 12-09-2005, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeebo

This time my paint and the original coating came off...right down to the plaster.

It's an actual plaster ceiling?

Exroadog · 12-09-2005, 07:45 PM

Is it old as in calcimine finish?

Zeebo · 12-09-2005, 08:21 PM

Yes...it is plaster I believe. It's not drywall. The house is about 35 years old and has sheetrock with a thin plaster finish and lattace wire mesh. I don't think it has anything to do with the plaster.

Any thoughts about why, upon application to another flat latex paint, my flat latex paint bubbled and took with it the original paint application?

I don't believe it is dust of the the paint that I was using because I changed paint.

Zeebo

Glasshousebltr · 12-09-2005, 10:11 PM

Sounds like the original paint didn't take to well, then your new paint softened it up and added some weight.

Just a guess.

Bob

PlainPainter · 12-11-2005, 10:43 AM

Definitely a Calcimine finish problem - although sounds like new construction?
Get a gallon of California Cal Coater. take off the original ceiling paint with
Zinnser Diff - once all off apply Cal coater. That's it

PlainPainter

**ProWallGuy** · 12-11-2005, 10:57 AM

Doubtful its calcimine, it was rarely used after 1950.

Zeebo said:
"The house is about 35 years old"

That would make it built around 1970. Highly unlikely anybody was using calcimine at that time.

But he also said:
"has sheetrock with a thin plaster finish and lattace wire mesh"

That doesn't sound like any 1970's era construction to me, at least not in my area. Sounds older than 35 years.

All signs lead to priming with an alkyd primer for adhesion.

Ripped from the Paint Quality Institute:

"Prior to the 1950s some ceilings were painted with a white wash like product called calcimine. Using latex paint on a ceiling that has been painted with calcimine may cause blistering. This is not very common in most areas now, but painters still run into this occasionally. Sometimes the calcimine can be washed off, but it is otherwise necessary to use an oil/alkyd base ceiling paint to prevent the blistering."

And this:

" Calcimine (also "kalsomine") is a white or tinted wash applied to interior plaster surfaces. It was supplied as a dry powder mix of calcium carbonate (chalk) and glue (usually casein), and the contractorsman mixed water with it to prepare it for application. (It was a popular approach 65+ years ago.) All of it should be scrubbed off the wall, and the scrubbed area rinsed thoroughly. Once dry, a high adhesion oil based interior primer can be applied; and a latex paint put on as a finish coat."

In any case, if it is calcimine, the failed layer would have signs of it on the back. It would appear and feel very chalky or dusty.

Exroadog · 12-11-2005, 11:52 AM

I run into calcimine constantly but i'm in a part of the country where a large amount of homes were built in the early 1800s and on. Lot of ceiling issues caused by guys not understanding calcimine. I beleive it was Prowallguy who was once talking about zinsser Gardz. Did a little research and Gardz(water-base) claims to cover calcimine(seal it). I've tried it on a couple ceilings and its fantastic stuff! Not saying that is your problem, but wanted to pass on the Gardz magic on the calcimine!

**ProWallGuy** · 12-11-2005, 06:27 PM

All right now, everybody together:

GARDZ KICKS A$$!

Yes, Gardz works on calcimine too. Roll the first coat on, and roll it in well. Then I'd second coat it to be sure, calcimine is ugly stuff.

thepaintman80 · 12-12-2005, 07:04 PM

The problem was in not hiring a painter ;>) Using Glidden Ultra-Hide perhaps too, don't buy your paint from Home Depot, having been a Glidden Rep I can attest to the fact that buying paint from Depot is a receipe for trouble. I was asked to sign papers that forbid me from telling you what goes on with that paint. Trust me, stay away from it.

Zeebo · 12-13-2005, 06:38 AM

I actually bought the paint from a local Glidden store...sales rep. highly recommended it. Tried it...just ok. I switched to another flat white paint believing that the paint was the original problem (or one of many). However, the ceiling blistered using another paint.

What I am also noticing is that the paint is blistering in areas that had been patched...but the patch work had been painted over by the previous owner. Maybe no primer was used??

Question for all of you. Do you usually prime and or use Gardz before painting over a flat ceiling that has existing white flat paint with new batch of white flat paint??? What a mouth full.

Thanks for the info guys...a good learning experience.

Zeebo

thepaintman80 · 12-13-2005, 08:56 AM

If I wiped my hand across the surface and noticed chalk I would find a bonding primer or perhaps add some Seal-Krete or EB to my paint. What does the back of the blistering paint chip look like? Are you able to see any chalk?

**slickshift** · 12-13-2005, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thepaintman80

...Using Glidden Ultra-Hide perhaps too, don't buy your paint from Home Depot, having been a Glidden Rep I can attest to the fact that buying paint from Depot is a receipe for trouble. I was asked to sign papers that forbid me from telling you what goes on with that paint. Trust me, stay away from it.

I was thinking that also
I have used the Glidden Ultra Hide
It's up (down) there with Behr on the list of product I won't touch for any price
...and I really don't think I'm a paint snob, but those two....ugh

Zeebo · 12-14-2005, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thepaintman80

If I wiped my hand across the surface and noticed chalk I would find a bonding primer or perhaps add some Seal-Krete or EB to my paint. What does the back of the blistering paint chip look like? Are you able to see any chalk?

No I don't see any chalk. What is Seal-Krete or EB ...additives to paint...for what purchase?

Thanks

Zeebo

thepaintman80 · 12-14-2005, 10:05 PM

Seal-Krete is a masonry sealer that is often used to increase the adhesion of paint to chalky surfaces. It can be put on clear and painted over or added to the paint. EB or Emulsa Bond (made by the Flood Company) adds to the adhesion properties of the paint. I beleive in is intended for exterior finishies but I've seen it used frequently inside. Peel stop works real well also.