When are you doing too much? - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

PlainPainter · 11-04-2007, 08:51 AM

Say you are confronted with a miserable peeling home. We all know there are different tiers of prep. Anywhere from a simple scrape with putty knive scrapers, to an all out assault with turbo nozzles - paint shavers - orbital sanding. What criteria do you use to say - enough is enough? I am beginning to think anything past a simple scrape - and perhaps we are wasting the customers money - unless they go for a 'total' paint removal paint jobs as per chemicals or sandblasting or something.

My last job - we used bahco tungsten carbide scrapers - then the porter cable paint remover over scraped areas - followed by a palm sanding. The clapboards looked like they were 'planed' after we were done. And areas where there were shakes - and the porter cable grinder was too aggressive - we used a lot of makita grinders. The home was a traditional New Englander Colonial that measure 30x22 feet with an addition put on back along with a garage and two deck restorations that took 385 man-hours. Was that overboard? IT looks absolutely stunning now - would a complete chemical paint removal cost just as much?

neolitic · 11-04-2007, 09:17 AM

This could be an interesting one.
I know from time to time I wonder how much of what I'm doing is just for my own ego. I mean I've got my nose right up in the problem area, when everyone else will be looking at it from 20 feet away!
It never ceases to amaze, what HO's don't see, some of the ugly stuff they have lived with happily for years bugs the hell out of me.
How much is too much, is a great question.

PlainPainter · 11-04-2007, 11:30 AM

This could actually lead to standards - then all of us contractors could be on the same page - sort of like drywall, where they have 1 thru 5 levels of finish. I think our industry should have the same - that way, quotes and estimates would be more like comparing apples to apples. For instance - yes madam, we think you would be happy with a level 3 finish which includes pressure washing and scraping with putty knives, etc. Actually - I almost think that if you aren't going to sand after scraping, especially on older wood - that those bahco carbide scrapers will leave too many gouges. Can anyone run the flag up the pole and suggest some tiered levels of prep for exterior house painting?

plazaman · 11-04-2007, 04:43 PM

Sounds like a job for Soda Blasting

PressurePros · 11-04-2007, 07:44 PM

Plain, you know my feeling on selling. Everything is an upgrade. Let the customer choose their level and you'll be more productive and not get caught in perfectionism. I was in the same trap.

PlainPainter · 11-05-2007, 09:34 AM

I know, Ken - that job @ $45/man-hour - would have gone through the roof. I just can't figure out - if our wages have been so depressed for so long - that 10-20 grand for house paint sounds like a lot of money - or it is the proper amount to charge, and we're just stuck in bad times. That being said I desperately would like input on different tiers of prep-work. Simple scrape jobs with putty knives - is at best a '3-year' job in my neck of the woods. Maybe I will just have to figure the 'tier' thing for myself. God I hate scraping and just leaving it like that!

PlainPainter · 11-05-2007, 09:41 AM

No offense plazaman - I've seen soda-blasting in action, and it does't have a place in the painting trades other than blasting wrought iron of it's rust. You can cover a lot more area alot quicker by other methods such as grinding, heating, or the use of chemical strippers. That soda blasting is for the birds - and even if I was going to use blast media - I'd use walnut hulls instead.

PressurePros · 11-05-2007, 12:33 PM

Dan, you do have to decide for yourself. What it takes to run my company, at our operating efficiency in our local economy could be very different than yours. I may include more or less in each tier. Approach tiered pricing from a customer perspective because thats how you are going to be selling it. Here's a mock sales call for you, Dan.

On your terms, but with the customer in mind

Set up a meeting with ALL decision makers. Mid afternoon meetings are suspect. Try to get there for 7 pm. Its one thing to give people breathing room and have a couple of days to decide on your bid. Its another thing altogether to waste your time with one person only to hear "I have to show the estimate to my husband, we'll get back to you"

Take control of the meeting and sit down. Don't ever do a sales call standing or near the front door. You'll quick pace yourself and probably come across as nervous or hurried. Once you get to the kitchen or dining room table, and everybody has their coffee, tea or other (always accept the offerings of a customer) and all small talk has taken place, get started.

Casual Conversation:

"Mr and Mrs Johnson, I looked at your property on Tuesday as you know. Do you mind if I show you what I came up with during my evaluation?"
(of course they won't but you are setting the tone to make them eager.. again, it is about pacing the sales call to your favor)

Now break out your evaluation sheet. Point to them problem areas. Plant seeds for the upgrades. This is done in casual fashion. Nothing gimmicky. Nothing high tech or dripping with sales rhetoric. You are showing the customers that you are a professional that is capable of assessing the project scope as well as showing an interest in THEIR project. The interest should be genuine. You are asking these people to trust you with their most important investment, you had better be serious about it. An example of planting a seed:

"I took a close look at your soffit trim. Its in decent shape, but it may be something you want to address for cosmetic reasons". Then you move on. You are going to present this later as an upgrade.

The Most Important Thing.. Listen:

Ask them what they would like to see as a finished result. Its not important what you want or what you think they made need. Its about what the customer envisions. Their hot buttons (ie benefits that are important to them) are going to be revealed here. Let them speak and stay alert. They are going to tell you everything you need to know to increase your chance of closing the sale. Its also going to give you a heads up as to what tier they are likely to go for.

At this point, if you have done what you should, it should be passed the point of whether or not they will hire you. Its now about how much they are willing to spend with you.

Reiterate what you have heard

"You folks have given me some great feedback. Is there anything else, any questions or concerns I may have missed before we discuss the different pricing tiers available to you?" This is important because you are trying to overcome objections before they are raised. If they say they have nothing further to ask, then you just created a psychological stumbling block in their minds. They are less likely to be able to start spitting out questions and objections when you go into your close.

This is obviously where you show your tiers. I wouldn't go more than three or four. Budget, Popular, Popular Plus, and Exquisite. I think those four are self explainatory.

Budget is how you compete with lowballers. This may be powerwash, spot scrape, spot prime, top coat. I would not use inferior materials. Some people may just want the budget plan, but thats does not mean they want junk on the house. Make it a selling point that ALL of your plans include top quality BM, SW paints etc. Another obvious point, don't push the budget plan.

Make the middle plan comprehensive. Sell it on customer benefits (ie: long lasting, good curb appeal, good for resale value). The middle plan is where you thrive. It should encompass your highest margin of the three plans. It should be (and will be) what most people pick.. Why? Because..

Present Your Tiers Top Down

Yes you will shock a customer with you Exquisite Level, $17,000 house painting bid. Thats good. It makes them adjust, in their minds, what they are going to have to spend. By the time you get to your middle plan they are relieved that their paint job is only going to cost $8,400.

Tiered pricing works. It makes selling much easier. Now as long as you can get out there and remember you are running a business, not chasing a hobby, you can stick to giving the customer exactly what they requested.

Fenner Out.

send_it_all · 11-05-2007, 12:51 PM

Nice post, Ken. I learned a lot.

PlainPainter · 11-05-2007, 05:20 PM

Ken - I will never give an estimate in a mailbox ever again - I am doing exactly all that. Even if that boosts my sales 33% - man it would be worth it.

mjay · 11-05-2007, 06:03 PM

Many Thanks for sharing. That is some great info.

plazaman · 11-05-2007, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlainPainter

No offense plazaman - I've seen soda-blasting in action, and it does't have a place in the painting trades other than blasting wrought iron of it's rust. You can cover a lot more area alot quicker by other methods such as grinding, heating, or the use of chemical strippers. That soda blasting is for the birds - and even if I was going to use blast media - I'd use walnut hulls instead.

Read the sept issue of Coatings Pro Magazine. Soda is getting more and more Recognition. More sq.ft with the other methods? Depends, are we removing epoxy coatings? Or just regular oil/latex? Each media has its place.

PlainPainter · 11-05-2007, 08:39 PM

I am removing house paints which are usually oil or latex - haven't come across too many epoxy homes. I've watched a guy 'stripping' a deck with soda blasting on youtube - it was painfully slow. Looks great for blasting metal or something - but homes, nahhh - it pits the wood too much - and I grind paint from clapboard much faster - perhaps that ornamental intricate pieces of trim - but even then, I'd go chemical route - with soft rinsing.

Patrick · 11-05-2007, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlainPainter

Say you are confronted with a miserable peeling home. We all know there are different tiers of prep. Anywhere from a simple scrape with putty knive scrapers, to an all out assault with turbo nozzles - paint shavers - orbital sanding. What criteria do you use to say - enough is enough? I am beginning to think anything past a simple scrape - and perhaps we are wasting the customers money

Send em my way, When im done they will never have to paint again.

donb1959 · 11-06-2007, 07:22 AM

Ken, nice post. This is the way I do it. The exterior of the home I do are almost always in bad shape..larger historic home. I treat for mildew, pressure wash, scrape all loose paint off, caulk,repair areas of soft wood with epoxy wood filler,glaze windows, and prime the entire home with oil primer. Then one coat finish.

Anything above that is an upgrade that includes orbital sanding to feather all the rough edges.

George Z · 11-06-2007, 11:06 AM

Ken,
very nice post and will work great for many, but not for us.

Quote:

Set up a meeting with ALL decision makers.

Quote:

What? we have to see the painter again? We both have to be there?
We hardly saw each other once this week,
Who is gonna take Mary to ballet classes, Tyler needs help with homework.

I think the proposal we got from AQW Painting looks great!
I just downloaded it this morning. These people have amazing references,
their proposal details everything, they are insured, their warranty is the best.
The Smiths next door used them and they are ecstatic!
They are a bit expensive, but they respect my time, they are professional.

I will fax our approval page. I can even schedule it with a credit card.

These people have to get on with the times...I have no time for Herb Tarlek

PressurePros · 11-06-2007, 06:47 PM

I agree George, we are in a fast paced society. The reality is we all live in it. I have all the standard family stuff plus businesses to run. If I can make the time, so can they. We are talking about the part of their largest life investment that they see every time the come up the driveway.. the exterior. The whole world sees it. The last thing a person with a $500,000 plus house wants to happen is to have a crappy job that will embarass and upset them. My feeling is that people at that level are educated enough to do their research on your company but without meeting you, the bells and whistles of an estimate package are icing on the cake but not the true selling point of using your company. That's old fashioned customer service. Its what's missing in today's world. When something is in print the majority of people will scan right to the bottom line. If you are not the cheapest guy, aren't you risking losing the sale by not meeting with the customer? Everything in the world is becoming a commodity. I don't offer commodity service and refuse to succomb to the mentality of it.

Many of my customers I have never met face to face but I am talking about $600 jobs. Referrals are also a different story. The trust factor is built in and they already know we are expensive. My belief is that people spending $5000-$20,000 want to meet you face to face and interview you. I would want to interview them as well. How can you know what the customer is seeking if you just look at the job and email them a proposal? That to me is impersonal and presumptious.

Backtracking a step here, the point of this thread is not really about meeting with customers. It is about determining customer needs so you can offer the customer what they want, versus what you think you should give them. Meeting with them is the neccessary step in that fact finding. I have never found anyone that is annoyed by that. In fact they are grateful that some coompanies out there still care about their wants and needs.

George Z · 11-06-2007, 07:01 PM

Ken, what you are saying has worked and still works.
Just not for us.
Customer service also means convenience.
The customer is informed, presold, and ready to hire,
why do they need to see the guy in the Polo shirt and the binder again?
Communication means many things and face to face is just only one way to do it.

Quote:

How can you know what the customer is seeking if you just look at the job and email them a proposal? That to me is impersonal and presumptious.

- We know how much time they spent in what page in our website
- They are very much pre-qualified (we wouldn't if we had the painters)
- they already communicated enough before you even got there
- When you did the measure call you measured them too
- They likely scheduled an appointment with our colour consultant
- They are Eco-friendly and love our policies
- They want what we have
- They want us and they say so.

At the end:
We get jobs at the margins we want.
The customer is raving about the service and convenience.
Our sales costs are down, our closing rates up.

Any reason to send Herb?

PressurePros · 11-06-2007, 08:31 PM

Herb? hell no. A down to earth, intelligent, competant, non pressure representative from your company.. absolutely. I know where you are coming from George, I don't doubt that your method is working for you. You have obviously spent awhile fine tuning it and already have a strong customer base. Many of the people reading this topic don't have either going for them yet. Perhaps you are looking at this from the perspective of sales call? That has its own connotations. This is a meeting of contractor and client to determine what the client wants. Either way, as with all the info on this board and others, you apply what you think will work for you.