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Old 09-17-2007, 09:06 AM   #1
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Suggestions


Going back to chicago for a month to do some work for long time customers.

Two story exterior, 3" lap siding. Lots and lots of nails with rust showing through the old paint.

Cost effective suggestions?
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:01 PM   #2
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Re: Suggestions


Thats unfortunate that the siding was nailed on with improper nails....

To solve the problem:

Clean rust as much as possible... (wire brush, sanding etc)

Apply 2 spot prime coats of a premium oil primer over the nail heads....

OR...

Clean rust as much as possible... (wire brush, sanding etc)

Counter sink the nail heads no more than 1/32"-1/16" you dont want the rounded crater looked when finished...

Spot prime each nail head with a premium oil primer (BM Fresh Start, California Problem Solver)

Apply a thin layer of premium caulking on each nail head...

Apply 2/coats of a premium finish...

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Old 09-17-2007, 07:19 PM   #3
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Re: Suggestions


Rust will probably pop anything you put on it, unless you really clean it and try rustoleum paint. The problem is it is not just the head that is rusting it is the whole nail so eventually rust is going to come through. This is a cheap fix but it will not solve the problem.

You could try setting the nails and a fibreglass bondo, but this would be very labour intensive.

Good luck with that!
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:58 AM   #4
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Re: Suggestions


Rust is always a problem. We use phosphoric acid very successfully. In fact, we have a client with an older home in an exclusive neighborhood who calls us because no one else is able to paint here windows and keep the rust from re-appearing (old steel casement windows).

We would scrape any paint off nail heads, use a small artist brush to apply a quick dab of phosphoric on each nailhead. Best to let dry overnight as it chemically transforms rust into zinc oxide (if I recall properly). At any rate, it stops rust very effectively. Prime with a good oil primer over everything and you're ready to go...

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Old 09-18-2007, 11:20 AM   #5
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Re: Suggestions


Try to sell them on a nice shade of brown? Hey, it's just a thought, could work...
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Old 09-20-2007, 03:22 AM   #6
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Re: Suggestions


I must have lost my settings. I usually get an e-mail when someone replies to a thread. Since I didn't I just ass u me d no one did.

Anyway, I haven't seen the house in a couple of years, but the nail heads aren't showing. I'd have to scrape the paint off all of them. The house is less than 20 yrs. old and probably has the original paint on it.

I like the acid idea. I like pulling and replacing every nail even more, but probably isn't feasable and I won't have any help out there. IF I do pull every nail, I'd replace with galv and not in the same holes. If this does come to pass, what would I patch the hole with?

This also leaves the problem of nails that aren't showing any rust...yet.

Thanks for the fresh ideas guys. Even the suggestion of painting it brown. lol.

It's always a tug of war between doing the very best and compromising. I've seen houses with rusty nails, they do rust all the way through, and rust winds up running out from under the boards. However, if no moisture gets to them, will they continue to rust? Brings up a lot of questions.
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Old 09-20-2007, 09:00 AM   #7
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Re: Suggestions


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joewho View Post

It's always a tug of war between doing the very best and compromising. I've seen houses with rusty nails, they do rust all the way through, and rust winds up running out from under the boards. However, if no moisture gets to them, will they continue to rust? Brings up a lot of questions.
Yes, rust never sleeps...once it begins it will continue, even after being covered, though it slows the process down.

Bob
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Old 09-20-2007, 10:26 PM   #8
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Re: Suggestions


What DaVinci said.

Rust is a cancer, to cure it must be removed.

It can be slowed, but not stopped.

I'm amazed no one mentioned Rust-o-leum Rust Reformer. That stuff slows it down and is good for a few years, 3-5.
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Old 09-20-2007, 10:53 PM   #9
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Re: Suggestions


Quote:
Originally Posted by daArch View Post
What DaVinci said.

Rust is a cancer, to cure it must be removed.

It can be slowed, but not stopped.

I'm amazed no one mentioned Rust-o-leum Rust Reformer. That stuff slows it down and is good for a few years, 3-5.
We always use straight phosphoric acid (the active ingredient in Rustoleum) because a gallon is about $25, and lasts a long time. It's runnier than rustoleum and penetrates deeper in my experience.

Bob
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Old 09-22-2007, 12:51 PM   #10
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Re: Suggestions


Sherwin-Williams Pro-Cryll primes over bare wood and will stop the rust. We do all churches with it and have never had a rust issue again.
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Old 09-24-2007, 10:41 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by premierpainter View Post
Sherwin-Williams Pro-Cryll primes over bare wood and will stop the rust. We do all churches with it and have never had a rust issue again.
SOunds like a viable alternative- have you gone back and checked the work 2-3 years later?

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Old 09-25-2007, 10:54 AM   #12
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Re: Suggestions


D, where can I get phosphoric acid? I was thinking of muriatic.

There are plenty of products to cover up, but I'm worried about what's going on deeper. I'm in Chitown, and will get to see the job today or tomorrow.
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:19 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joewho View Post
D, where can I get phosphoric acid? I was thinking of muriatic.

There are plenty of products to cover up, but I'm worried about what's going on deeper. I'm in Chitown, and will get to see the job today or tomorrow.
No, don't use Muriatic. It will etch, but not chemically transform like Phosphoric, which turns it into zinc oxide. I buy it at Sherwin WIlliams, I think they call it Metal Prep or something like that- just read the label, Phosphoric acid should be first ingredient.

I think BM also sells a brand called Metal Etch which is green liquid and is also phosphoric...

Good Luck.
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Old 09-29-2007, 11:41 PM   #14
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Re: Suggestions


I have SW account, should be no problem.
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Old 09-30-2007, 07:09 AM   #15
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Re: Suggestions


I have always spot primed with a rustoleum type shop metal primer - has worked great.
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Old 09-30-2007, 04:00 PM   #16
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Re: Suggestions


Quote:
We would scrape any paint off nail heads, use a small artist brush to apply a quick dab of phosphoric on each nailhead. Best to let dry overnight as it chemically transforms rust into zinc oxide (if I recall properly).
Quote:
No, don't use Muriatic. It will etch, but not chemically transform like Phosphoric, which turns it into zinc oxide.
Phosphoric Acid will turn it (rust) into Iron Phosphate... Phosphoric will dissolve rust faster than it will dissolve iron. So, unless you leave it on for a long time it won't really do much damage to the iron.

Specifically, when you react Phosphoric Acid (2 H3PO4) and Rust (Fe2O3), you get Iron Phosphate (2 FePO4) and Water (3 H2O)

Fe2O3 + 2 H3PO4 2 FePO4 + 3 H2O

No Zinc Oxide!

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Old 09-30-2007, 10:01 PM   #17
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Re: Suggestions


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolverine-Eric View Post
Specifically, when you react Phosphoric Acid (2 H3PO4) and Rust (Fe2O3), you get Iron Phosphate (2 FePO4) and Water (3 H2O)

Fe2O3 + 2 H3PO4 2 FePO4 + 3 H2O
It's nice to get to the bottom of a problem with a clear explanation.

So, what you're saying, is there will be water filled blisters, if you paint too soon, with an impervious coating?
r
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Old 10-01-2007, 12:07 AM   #18
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Re: Suggestions


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolverine-Eric View Post
Phosphoric Acid will turn it (rust) into Iron Phosphate... Phosphoric will dissolve rust faster than it will dissolve iron. So, unless you leave it on for a long time it won't really do much damage to the iron.

Specifically, when you react Phosphoric Acid (2 H3PO4) and Rust (Fe2O3), you get Iron Phosphate (2 FePO4) and Water (3 H2O)

Fe2O3 + 2 H3PO4 2 FePO4 + 3 H2O

No Zinc Oxide!

Impressive Professor! I had to write the formulas on my hand to pass chem exams. Isn't that the same as the coating on drywall screws?
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:17 AM   #19
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Re: Suggestions


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolverine-Eric View Post
Phosphoric Acid will turn it (rust) into Iron Phosphate... Phosphoric will dissolve rust faster than it will dissolve iron. So, unless you leave it on for a long time it won't really do much damage to the iron.

Specifically, when you react Phosphoric Acid (2 H3PO4) and Rust (Fe2O3), you get Iron Phosphate (2 FePO4) and Water (3 H2O)

Fe2O3 + 2 H3PO4 2 FePO4 + 3 H2O

No Zinc Oxide!
I stand corrected- it's been 20 years since I first started using that product, so I didn't remember the resulting chemical coating. Most guys at the paint stores scratch their head when you ask for it, let alone explaining the chemical reaction. Thanks for the refresher course professor.

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