Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs

 
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Old 09-29-2010, 08:13 PM   #1
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Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


I am looking at beginning to sub-contract out more work and wondering if you are doing the same and what are advantages or disadvantages? I have a few very good and reputable companies I can sub to so quality, trust and reputation are not an issue. Curious...
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Old 09-29-2010, 08:15 PM   #2
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


Iím looking to do the same I have 8 projects that will need paint soon.
I donít want to talk pricing but I could save 50% or more doing it my self

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Old 09-29-2010, 08:28 PM   #3
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


I tried it.. Nobody was able to meet my standards.

<----- Paint Snob
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Old 09-29-2010, 08:36 PM   #4
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


Wonder what the common off the top amount is these days to sub out. Sure it is different in areas. I have heard some guys say 10-20% of the job quote.
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Old 09-29-2010, 08:51 PM   #5
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


Quote:
I tried it.. Nobody was able to meet my standards.
I haven't been down that road for many reasons. No one wants to hear you sell and job for great quality reason on why YOU should have been hired and you tell them you are subing it out to "these guys" and that they will take care of everything.

Unless you really know them/their work and they understand they are working under your name and not just getting paid more because they have insurance then yeah sub work out. It's a great way to produce massive amounts of work in any given season, but I'm sure when I say this, at a lesser quality.

My personal opinion and what I do (being only a painting business and not a GC) is sell the job no matter how back booked I am, tell them when I can start, and get a contract/deposit. If the season is changing and I know I can't fit the job in, in time, then I'll sell it harder for next season and 8/10 times it lines on work right out of the winter for me.

my .02-->hacks.com
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Old 09-29-2010, 09:01 PM   #6
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


Good points PD! I am working on figuring if I can come out better (taxes, insurance, etc.) by doing this since I have a small handful of contractors that do work that meets my expectations. I probably would not tell a customer that I am turning the job over to someone else but still follow up on job as it goes on to make sure customer is happy. Wondering if this will give me more opportunity to go after new business, etc., and do the things I may can do to grow my business.
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Old 09-29-2010, 09:10 PM   #7
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


I think that you can grow your business without having to sub work out to other painters. Weigh the pros and cons.

Quote:
I have a small handful of contractors
Why don't they contract their own work at competitive prices?

What I want to know is if there are and GC's phishing the boards tonight how you get into managing subbing out work in multiple trades? Did you learn up each trade? Did you take classes and a test? I'm sure there is a GC license..I would like to work up to a GC. This is my living and I WANT to learn more about all the trades. I mainly am interest too because the jobs will last longer and be more commerical instead of dealing with the custies (all joking aside). Thoughts?

-Thanks from the blind and internet woonded

Last edited by Paint Dribblz; 09-29-2010 at 09:14 PM. Reason: additions
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Old 09-29-2010, 09:13 PM   #8
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


When I say contractors I am talking about painting contractors. thanks
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Old 09-29-2010, 09:15 PM   #9
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paint Dribblz View Post
I think that you can grow your business without having to sub work out to other painters. Weigh the pros and cons.



Why don't they contract their own work at competitive prices?

What I want to know is if there are and GC's phishing the boards tonight how you get into managing subbing out work in multiple trades? Did you learn up each trade? Did you take classes and a test? I'm sure there is a GC license..I would like to work up to a GC. This is my living and I WANT to learn more about all the trades. I mainly am interest too because the jobs will last longer and be more commerical instead of dealing with the custies (all joking aside). Thoughts?

-Thanks from the blind and internet woonded
Honestly itís not rocket science; it does however take a few years to learn the ins & outs of each field.
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Old 09-29-2010, 11:06 PM   #10
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


the more demanding you are of your painter, the more you understand they need to be paid more... everyone wants to cheap out on the painter... for a few extra bucks you can find a higher caliber painter that will do everything the correct way with premium products because he is not worried about the bottom line...

it's also hard to find high end painters because so many have been trained to cut corners and use cheap acrylic caulk and cheap paint... but they are out there and your local paint store might just tell you who 1 or 2 of them are... just ask the right questions...
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Old 09-30-2010, 07:49 AM   #11
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


I sub some painting projects for different reasons. Some are too far away from my shop and I dont want to pay travel time or hotel. Currently my company has sold way too much work and we have to sub to get it all done before the snow flies. I also sub if I know my bid is questionable and I want to guarantee my profit percentage.

All of my subs get paid net 30. if they complain about carrying the cost of labor and material I will let them use my accounts for the materials and take it off their end upon completion. Labor costs are their problem and I know sometimes it hurts the small guys but if you want to run a business you should have some capital put away for jobs that dont pay as quickly as you like.

the advantages to the sub is that they do not have to spend time quoting, selling and collecting. This allows them to lower their price so that I can make the money that I need to. Most of the time I am able to sub for a decent profit but still have to spend my time visiting the job site and communicating with the customer.

Also, all of my subcontractors represent themselves as an employee of my company. It is in my contract and they are all good about it, I even give them shirts with my company name on them.

A final note would be that if you have a problem with the quality and a subcontractor fails to resolve the issue you can complete the repairs / touchups in house and back charge your sub at a pre-determined rate that should be in your contract. Make the hourly rate high so that they take care of it. Thats where the net 30 really helps, good luck getting them back out there if you have already paid them.
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Old 10-12-2011, 06:31 PM   #12
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


Absolutely sub it out. But make sure you do it legally. "Hiring" a sub is very little different then "hiring" an employee. They gotta provide quality and establish a good working relationship with you. My biz model is ~75% subs and ~25% employees. Sh!t we just finished a $6700 paint job on a home that I never stepped foot in. The sub did it all. For the quote he submitted his approximate hours to me and I submitted the propasal to the client. Job complete, client satisfied, 27% to the sub, 13% for the matls. The sub is happy, I'm happy, client is happy (got 2 quotes from her referral and we just completed the job a few days ago). WIN - WIN - WIN all the way around.

Granted - me and this particular sub have been working together for the past 3 yrs so we both understand each other's expectations. Bottom line - it has been extremely benificial for the both of us. BTW, we are never the middle to lowest bidder and the subs are paid very well. Just my .02 cents worth. Hope this helps.
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Old 10-12-2011, 06:52 PM   #13
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paint Dribblz View Post
What I want to know is if there are and GC's phishing the boards tonight how you get into managing subbing out work in multiple trades? Did you learn up each trade? Did you take classes and a test? I'm sure there is a GC license..I would like to work up to a GC. This is my living and I WANT to learn more about all the trades. I mainly am interest too because the jobs will last longer and be more commerical instead of dealing with the custies (all joking aside). Thoughts?
In Rhode Island you don't need to take classes, a test or get a special license to be a general contractor. All you need is $500k of insurance and a registration with the RI Contractor's Registration and Licensing Board. The same registration you need to be a painting contractor. Tackling larger projects with more people on site and the minimum insurance is probably a bad idea.
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Old 10-12-2011, 06:56 PM   #14
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


[QUOTE=EthanB;1303966]In Rhode Island you don't need to take classes, a test or get a special license to be a general contractor. All you need is $500k of insurance and a registration with the RI Contractor's Registration and Licensing Board. The same registration you need to be a painting contractor. Tackling larger projects with more people on site and the minimum insurance is probably a bad idea. [ idea.[/[/B]QUOTE]

Why?

Last edited by Ohio Painters; 10-12-2011 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 10-12-2011, 07:02 PM   #15
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


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Why?
Because that's the state law. You're subs must also be registered with the appropriate agency and there is a different registration for roofer's but it is a registration, not a license.

Edit: Whups, missed the red highlighting. I'd say it's because as you expose yourself to more liability you should increase your coverage. I'm not saying get crazy high coverage but having a million in coverage doesn't cost much more than $500k for most GCs.
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Old 10-12-2011, 07:06 PM   #16
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


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Because that's the state law. You're subs must also be registered with the appropriate agency and there is a different registration for roofer's but it is a registration, not a license.
But if you've required the registration - where is the risk - liability wise?

LOL - I missed your last part also. I hear you and agree with you.
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Old 10-12-2011, 07:20 PM   #17
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


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But if you've required the registration - where is the risk - liability wise?
A lawyer would be far better equipped to answer this than I. I just see it as more opportunities for something to go wrong. If I'm the GC ultimate responsibility falls on me so if it's questionable whether an injury was caused by sub then it could land in my lap.
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Old 10-12-2011, 07:34 PM   #18
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


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A lawyer would be far better equipped to answer this than I. I just see it as more opportunities for something to go wrong. If I'm the GC ultimate responsibility falls on me so if it's questionable whether an injury was caused by sub then it could land in my lap.
Read my post (#13) - 2nd sentence. Do it legally and the risks are very minimal. You are right - we are not attorneys - that's why we retain them (attorneys) - to protect us from such risks.
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Old 10-14-2011, 05:43 AM   #19
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


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Originally Posted by NAV View Post
I sub some painting projects for different reasons. Some are too far away from my shop and I dont want to pay travel time or hotel. Currently my company has sold way too much work and we have to sub to get it all done before the snow flies. I also sub if I know my bid is questionable and I want to guarantee my profit percentage.

All of my subs get paid net 30. if they complain about carrying the cost of labor and material I will let them use my accounts for the materials and take it off their end upon completion. Labor costs are their problem and I know sometimes it hurts the small guys but if you want to run a business you should have some capital put away for jobs that dont pay as quickly as you like.

the advantages to the sub is that they do not have to spend time quoting, selling and collecting. This allows them to lower their price so that I can make the money that I need to. Most of the time I am able to sub for a decent profit but still have to spend my time visiting the job site and communicating with the customer.

Also, all of my subcontractors represent themselves as an employee of my company. It is in my contract and they are all good about it, I even give them shirts with my company name on them.

A final note would be that if you have a problem with the quality and a subcontractor fails to resolve the issue you can complete the repairs / touchups in house and back charge your sub at a pre-determined rate that should be in your contract. Make the hourly rate high so that they take care of it. Thats where the net 30 really helps, good luck getting them back out there if you have already paid them.
Sounds like a certa pro painters franchise. Just wondering how theyre not considered an employee when u supply the job, materials and force an independent contractor to dress in company apparel? Some may consider that flying under the radar and avoiding payroll taxes. Could you explain the legality based on Ohio Revised code?
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Old 10-14-2011, 08:38 AM   #20
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Re: Sub-Contracting Out Paint Jobs


I would say that most who sub their work out like this do so illegally. They have the subs attach magnetic signs and wear shirts with company logos. They are told when and where to work. The only difference is they are saving a bundle of money not paying payroll taxes and insurance on them.

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