smooth wall questions/frustrations - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Cummins · 08-11-2007, 02:32 PM

For all the expert painters here, my question is this: I have a new home that is being painted, and myself, not knowing a whole lot about smooth walls(no texture at all) what is the best method of painting them? Rolled? Sprayed?
The paint being used is flat, but with any type of light hitting the ceiling or wall, you can either see " stroke" marks or if a roller was used, you can see the roller marks. Looking at it head on or not from a angle, it looks great. It is very frustrating to myself and the painter. Granted not a lot of painters here in Arizona have dealt with smooth walls, so I am understanding and patient as I can be.
I know a lot of homes back east have smooth walls, so I am hoping some of you guys can step up and help out a little here. I do not have any painting resources here, so I am at your mercy here for some advice.....
Thanks for taking the time to reply.

MarvinWilleyJr · 08-11-2007, 02:38 PM

A short hair nap, and someone that can use a brush!

So many factors......drywall needs to be very good, and you have to have a good painter.

daArch · 08-11-2007, 03:05 PM

Are you saying you see "lap marks" , roller trails (or ropes), or just the texture of the roller nap?

Lap marks are from not timing application properly so that one edge is too dry (poorly explained) and thus "flashes")

Roller trails are caused from too much paint on the edge of the roller and an excess "ridge" is applied without being "feathered"

Texture of the roller nap is normal and some feel beneficial.

OR, you could be seeing the area where the joint compound was applied at the seam of the wallboard.

Whatever, it sounds like inexperienced application. Painted walls should look homogenous. No lap marks, no flashing, no ropes. All one even surface.

HEY, why not install wallpaper? I bet there's an NGPP member near you you could give you a quality installation (sorry, I stopped painting years ago and now install wallpaper)

**slickshift** · 08-11-2007, 03:17 PM

Don't know if you are talking more smooth than normal or what
And we'd need some more info on exactly what was done and how it was done to give a hint as to what else could/should be done to make it smoother

But I can tell you the biggest causes of roller lines and brush marks
1) cheap paint
2) cheap brushes
3) cheap roller sleeves
4) bad technique
5) no primer (new. const. and drastic color/substrate changes)

Also:
The leveling characteristics (and general quality) of the paints have more to do with stipple than the size of the nap

Spraying premium paint generally is "the smoothest" as it tends not to leave stipple

It should be "smooth enough" rolled on properly

MinConst · 08-11-2007, 08:25 PM

I have allways used drywall PVA primer and two coats of good paint BM, PL, or SW. Being a newbee in Florida I see your point. Where I came from in NY it was all smooth walls my whole life. This texture has spoiled people that rock, finish and paint I guess. No offense implied.
Now when I do repairs down here I almost hate to cover up my work with texture. I'd love to do a room smooth again

Workaholic · 08-11-2007, 09:46 PM

As everyone else said it could be any various factors. What i would like to know, is it the joints in the sheetrock that you are seeing?
If so than as suggested i would go with a coat of PVA and to coats of finish.
Now if it not the joints than it could be a bad technique, or poor tools, ect..

**Teetorbilt** · 08-11-2007, 10:06 PM

My first guess (about 50% of my business is new homes) is no primer. If you start with a good primer, tinted to your topcoat, I'll bet that your problems will disappear.

mikenewman@fron · 08-11-2007, 10:12 PM

I ran in to this problem on a house for Walt Disney's grandson. We call that syndrome "angular sheen". Usually caused by a flat paint with a high washability which makes for a slight shine. What I recomend is adding some floetrol to the final coat and roll with a 18 inch 1/2 inch lambs wool roller early in the AM before it gets so hot. Lap marks are a problem in the summer here in Utah where it's 100 and 15% hum. talk about fast drying conditions. Good luck. Mike in Moab

DavidNTX · 08-11-2007, 10:25 PM

A lot of the walls on the east coast are made of plaster. While sheetrock should be able to be finished correctly, plaster makes a much nicer "smooth wall" and finishes better too.

Da Vinci · 08-11-2007, 10:34 PM

We do a lot of smooth wall finishing here in the Bay Area of Northern CA
It's referred to a level five smooth wall out here and is the most difficult to paint.
Mike is right- good primer, paint early, 3/8" nap of good quality roller cover (we use Purdy White Dove). The painter has to be quick and skilled to lay it on fast enough so it flows and blends- and also must NOT go back and touch up or try to re-roll any of the wall after rolling an area- no matter what. It will stipple and leave a different texture that will be very obvious.

There are two ways to go here- A) use a top quality paint like BM Regal wall satin (Flat) for best flow and overall quality, but understand there will be a slight sheen due to resin/solids in the quality paint. B) use a cheaper lower quality flat and eliminate almost all sheen which hides defects better. Lower quality paints have lots of clay and fillers, so they're more flat. You can't clean them, but a cheap touch-up brush and they touch up great and blend well. Kelly-Moore 550 flat works for that out here.

Good Luck!
Bay Area Painting Contractor

Cummins · 08-11-2007, 11:24 PM

Guys, thank you so much for the responses, I do appreciate each and every one. I will give some more background, and I do apologize for not doing so earlier.
The drywall and taping was top notch, I have never seen a better job. After they were done taping, they brought in a big spray rig to shoot on the finish,which they mixed a primer with the mud. Also, the drywaller used bright lights against the wall to check for imperfections, and the sanding job was awesome.
The painter did shoot a good quality primer on prior to any painting. The pints you all have made seem very logical, especially the ones about it being hot and humid...I never thought about that at all.
We are using a good quality paint, so I am not too sure if it is that or not, as for quality of the rollers, I can not tell you about that.
My biggest question i guess is how is the best way to fix it? I can not let it go even though people say it looks good, I have to be sure in my mind that it is nothing less than perfect.
I dont know guys, please keep the suggestions coming, thanks again for the help.

**Teetorbilt** · 08-12-2007, 12:04 AM

I'm in FL, east coast, and don't find temp. and humidity a factor. Both are here always. Nathan (the admin. of this site) was a painter in Orlando which is even worse than being coastal. I don't think that this is an active factor, I'm leaning more towards application.

daArch · 08-12-2007, 08:15 AM

Cummins,

I am still not clear on what you are seeing.

you said originally, "you can either see 'stroke' marks or if a roller was used, you can see the roller marks."

Is there a difference in sheen, or ridges of excess paint?

In the above quote you say "or if a roller was used", were two different application methods used?

In your second post you say "they brought in a big spray rig to shoot on the finish,which they mixed a primer with the mud "

Granted I've been out of the painting business for a while, but I'm not familiar with this, mixing primer with mud?? That just doesn't sound right. In order for finish paint to be homogeneous there needs to be a base that is evenly and equally sealed (primed). Otherwise, you will get flashing.

BTW, are you the homeowner?

You mention you need perfection. I've had some great talks with one of my colleagues about this. His point is there is no such thing as perfection. And I understand what he's saying. Take a "perfectly" straight line. No matter how "perfectly straight" it is, you can always magnify it more to prove it is not "perfect". Perfection is such a subjective value. I think this is why the PDCA has defined a level of acceptance.

I used to be a "perfectionist" but realized that I was just being obsessive and never satisfied. Now I follow this creed, "Strive for perfection, settle for excellence". I am happier and so are my customers.

I'm not there and can not see what you see, but I do hear the "nothing less than perfect" warning sign. I do not mean to insult you or discount your need for top quality, but do step back and examine what you are asking for: perfection or acceptable excellence.

-Bill

Cummins · 08-12-2007, 11:50 AM

Bill, no offense taken. If you use a roller, let it dry, step back and look, you can see every path the roller had taken. The spray rig was used by the drywall company that sprays mud on the wall, just like an airless sprays paint, it puts the mud on evenly.
I understand about perfection, and you are probably correct about being obsessed with it. I know perfection cant be achieved, but a good quality job is not expecting too much.
If an airless sprayer is used, then you can see the overlapping edges that the spray gun makes.

**slickshift** · 08-12-2007, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cummins

...If you use a roller, let it dry, step back and look, you can see every path the roller had taken....
If an airless sprayer is used, then you can see the overlapping edges that the spray gun makes.

It's either:
1) cheap paint
3) cheap roller sleeves
4) bad technique
5) no primer

If I understand you correctly, primer was mixed in with the mud, and sprayed on as level 5 skim coat...then it was primed again?

If it was not primed again, that could be part of the problem
primer needs to seal in the (dried) mud...not be mixed with it
That only adds color, which is the least of the reasons for primer (sealing substrate and helping paint adhere are the primary reasons for primer)

If it was primed again, it really shouldn't be doing that
It could be your painter I suppose (technique)
If you could tell us what was the exact primer used, the exact paint used, the exact sprayer used, and the exact roller sleeves used, we might be able to eliminate product and tools

Cummins · 08-12-2007, 01:24 PM

You are correct about the level five skim coat. After that process, yes there was another coat of primer applied to the whole house. As far as paint being used, they are using Dunn Edwards I believe, the sprayer is a Graco, not sure which model it is, as far as the rollers, I could not tell you, I would have to go to the site and see if i can get that info for you. The ceilings are done in flat as I believe the walls are too. Hell, it could just be the painter, I dont know.
I believe the primer that was used was a good quality primer, I just cant think of the name, I do apologize, I will try and get that info, and thank you for the help so far, it is greatly appreciated.

mikenewman@fron · 08-12-2007, 04:45 PM

Cummins, I agree with Da Vinci Ben Moore wall Satin "flat" is the best leveling true flat finish that still has washability. Invest in 1 gallon and try an area. Use a lambs wool 3/8 or 1/2 in. lay it on heavy and even strokes floor to ceiling. Put a pint of flotrol per gal if it dries too fast. You have to keep a wet edge. A lot of flat paints are not true flat which causes this impossible flashing and angular sheen. Especialy will show on ceilings! Good luck.

Joewho · 08-12-2007, 06:52 PM

Use ceiling paint, a paint designated for ceilings.

Overlap by 1/2 of your roller strokes. The final strokes should all be in the same direction. The final strokes should be done lightly. I'd bet that if you roll all the final strokes in one direction, you'll be good to go.

I'm in vegas, but only for a year and 1/2, rest of my life is from Illinois and smooth wall heaven. I hate the texture out here. Am finishing up a 4 color stucco exterior with lots of "pop outs". Hate it with a passion. All grunt work, no skill.

I don't understand why the drywall has to be skim coated and the mud sprayed on? Is that really necessary or just an extra charge?

MarvinWilleyJr · 08-12-2007, 07:37 PM

They use a product they call equalizer as a final coat for level 5 around here. It's not mud but kinda like that. They spray a heavy coat of it, then we put primer over that.

As for the all one dirrection thingy.......sounds great but, I don't believe that's a big deal.....if you can roll, you don't need to make one pass down then....another pass down....and so on. Seem as though that's a big waste of time.........unless you can't roll right.

daArch · 08-12-2007, 08:08 PM

i remember the sleeves back in the 70's where it DID matter which direction the roller turned.
one way left a much rougher finish than the other.

Now a days it don't matter.