Self-Priming Exterior Paints

 
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:13 PM   #1
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Self-Priming Exterior Paints


I've always avoided 'paint and primer in one' paints.

But have they gotten any better over recent years?
(Behr Premium Plus for example)

I have unpainted wood on an exterior to do (probably), unpainted planks and trim. Do the separate prime coat(s) perform/adhere better still?

... against the easier to bid, all-in-ones...
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:45 PM   #2
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


SWP Multi Purpose or PrepRite Pro Block.

I use them under Duration which is sold as paint primer in one.

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Old 09-29-2017, 09:34 AM   #3
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


You can test adherence for a given paint schedule very easily - do test samples, and use a tape test to see how it adheres.

Paint formulations change so fast these days, I do this every time I'm doing significant exterior painting.

On bare wood, the answer is going to depend somewhat on how much tint is in the paint, and the sheen you're using. Less tint is better, more acrylic (usually a higher sheen) is better.

I've seen Superpaint houses painted 15 years ago painted white on bare wood that are still going strong.

Best longevity still appears to be use a 100% acrylic semi transparent stain, then come along after a few months and paint your 2 coats of acrylic paint.

Last edited by hdavis; 09-29-2017 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:25 AM   #4
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


The only one I've seen that doesn't say to prime bare wood with a true primer is Valspar.

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Old 09-29-2017, 08:25 PM   #5
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


Quote:
Originally Posted by tjbnwi View Post
SWP Multi Purpose or PrepRite Pro Block.

I use them under Duration which is sold as paint primer in one.

Tom
I've had success with Preprite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
You can test adherence for a given paint schedule very easily - do test samples, and use a tape test to see how it adheres.

Paint formulations change so fast these days, I do this every time I'm doing significant exterior painting.

On bare wood, the answer is going to depend somewhat on how much tint is in the paint, and the sheen you're using. Less tint is better, more acrylic (usually a higher sheen) is better.

I've seen Superpaint houses painted 15 years ago painted white on bare wood that are still going strong.

Best longevity still appears to be use a 100% acrylic semi transparent stain, then come along after a few months and paint your 2 coats of acrylic paint.
Tape test will give a general stick impression. But not necessarily how well it will endure. Especially on wood that has been left to "weather" untreated over a period of time. Of course this can get in-depth, where slow dry oil primer is best suited for tanin bleed through on some woods, like cedar, etc.

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The only one I've seen that doesn't say to prime bare wood with a true primer is Valspar.

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My bet is if it were to fail, it would be deemed "substrate failure".


I can read, I get spec sheets I follow manufacturer specs not what someone else did. Best practice is to always use a separate appropriate, interior or exterior primer. Your first reply recommended that.


As hdavis correctly pointed out, "Paint formulations change so fast these days..." -- this is the key, and the reason for the post -- I'm returning my toe to the water wondering if any of these all-in-one's are worth anything. Or they just another paint sales pitch of our day? Noting that the paint (supply) business has to be one of the most unscrupulous materials supplied in all the trades, bar none. The games they play.

There seems to be an awful lot of unwarranted agreement here; if there is one thing I've learned, it is that an honest search for truth has nothing whatsoever to do with agreeing, in fact, it is independent of it -- the need for agreement can be an indicator of something else. But I'll try to keep things light... realizing this can hit a wrong chord.

Back to Behr - I began painting custom home exteriors with their acrylic oil mix solid stains back in the late 80's, builder specced. If I could get that still today I would. Unfortunately they killed it off and thinned their exterior solids to an almost milk consistency, that runs down your arm when you brush out the eves. I spoke with a Behr rep, who denies all this... I think I've used their ceiling paints twice since, with the exception of customer supplied touch-ups.

- So much of paint has turned into a profit-driven shell game. Tell the customer they don't have to prime...if it amounts to easier, they'll buy it. But has a lie been committed in the meantime? Add a small amount of sheen, call it more durable, and jack the price....complying with emissions, and gouge even more claiming newer and more expensive ingredients.. change out the bases, change out the tint system so vastly larger areas have to be repainted altogether that now exclude pre-owned matching touch-up... and on and on and on ...

Last edited by Warren; 09-29-2017 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:20 PM   #6
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


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Tape test will give a general stick impression. But not necessarily how well it will endure. Especially on wood that has been left to "weather" untreated over a period of time.
IMO, it's the only way to check it, especially for weathered wood adhesion. It does predict long term performance (or endurance).
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:32 PM   #7
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


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Best practice is to always use a separate appropriate, interior or exterior primer.
Like I said, best practice today for longevity is to use a 100% acrylic semitransparent stain as a primer, then 2 top coats.


One obvious point that can get missed is 2 total coats aren't the same as 3 total coats. For exterior, pinholes, holidays, etc leave places for early entry of moisture, accelerating the film degradation.

IMO, the paint&primer in 1 is a marketing gimmick. In interior paints, the performance of the "paint&primer" products is comparable to other paints in the same line at ~1/2-2/3 the price. It seems they're mainly reformulated to have a high mil thickness, so not only do you use expensive paint, you use more of it for little gain.
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Old 09-30-2017, 05:39 AM   #8
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


Quote:
Originally Posted by artinall View Post
I can read, I get spec sheets I follow manufacturer specs not what someone else did. Best practice is to always use a separate appropriate, interior or exterior primer. Your first reply recommended that.
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Old 09-30-2017, 05:53 AM   #9
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


Quote:
Originally Posted by artinall View Post

I have unpainted wood on an exterior to do (probably), unpainted planks and trim. Do the separate prime coat(s) perform/adhere better still?

... against the easier to bid, all-in-ones...
For unpainted wood use the best possible wood primer first. That has not changed.
The paint and primer in one is nothing more than a gimmick to the DIY crowd who don't know whether or not they need a primer when painting over a previously painted surface. The paint and primer in one paints are not intended to primer bare wood, masonry, metal etc. Each material still requires its own type of primer.

Another thing to consider is traditionally we used oil primers under latex finish paints, now latex primers are very good, oil primer still has its place mind you. Years ago we started experimenting with SW Peel Bond primer on bare wood, we have not had a single issue and we found we were saving time as it applies so much easier, it is now our go to primer for exterior bare wood.
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Old 09-30-2017, 09:38 AM   #10
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


Little bit of confusion here. This post has been edited.

hdavis - your reply to my (Artinall) Quote" Best practice is to always use a separate appropriate, interior or exterior primer." -- these words were not mine, I was quoting what avenge had said.

SmallTownGuy - your reply to my (Artinall) Quote "I can read, I get spec sheets I follow manufacturer specs not what someone else did. Best practice is to always use a separate appropriate, interior or exterior primer. Your first reply" same thing. So I will ignore your misplaced comment.

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For unpainted wood use the best possible wood primer first. That has not changed.
The paint and primer in one is nothing more than a gimmick to the DIY crowd who don't know whether or not they need a primer when painting over a previously painted surface. The paint and primer in one paints are not intended to primer bare wood, masonry, metal etc. Each material still requires its own type of primer.

Another thing to consider is traditionally we used oil primers under latex finish paints, now latex primers are very good, oil primer still has its place mind you. Years ago we started experimenting with SW Peel Bond primer on bare wood, we have not had a single issue and we found we were saving time as it applies so much easier, it is now our go to primer for exterior bare wood.
IMHO the all in one's are sometimes presented in a way that they are suitable...and getting more so that way. That this is the "high tech" answer to the paint world.

I've had great results with BM Fresh start primer, but its been more than 3yrs - don't know if it's been reformulated.

Last edited by artinall; 09-30-2017 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 09-30-2017, 09:53 AM   #11
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


Quote:
Originally Posted by artinall View Post
Little bit of confusion here. This post has been edited.

hdavis - your reply to my (Artinall) Quote" Best practice is to always use a separate appropriate, interior or exterior primer." -- these words were not mine, I was quoting what avenge had said.
I wasn't confused about where it came from, I wanted you to know I disagreed with the statement. Forest Products Lab best practice is to use semitransparent 100% acrylic stain, not a primer. An important point is warrantee, and you just aren't going to get one going this route. On exterior wood, weathered or new, I get better performance than either the oil based or acrylic based primers SW recommends as best for their Duration system.

Avenge seems to be from the same old school I am. This was a very simple question to answer back in the all oil paint days, today it's way more complicated.
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Old 09-30-2017, 10:52 AM   #12
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


On any new surface which has never had paint applied to it such as drywall, new wood installs, metal, ALWAYS use a separate primer first. This is my 40th year in the paint biz. I've tried every gimmick regarding the skipping of primer. IT DOESN'T WORK. Prime, then 2 coats minimum. That is all.
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Old 09-30-2017, 04:28 PM   #13
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


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On any new surface which has never had paint applied to it such as drywall, new wood installs, metal, ALWAYS use a separate primer first. This is my 40th year in the paint biz. I've tried every gimmick regarding the skipping of primer. IT DOESN'T WORK. Prime, then 2 coats minimum. That is all.
I agree 100%.
When you need primer you need the right primer. I don't agree with how high tech one may think the all in one's are getting, they are not a suitable primer for any bare substrate.

In regards to the comment of semi transparent stain as a primer - stain is made to repel water, so how does stain now hold / grip / the next layer of water based product and not repel it?
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Old 09-30-2017, 06:30 PM   #14
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


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In regards to the comment of semi transparent stain as a primer - stain is made to repel water, so how does stain now hold / grip / the next layer of water based product and not repel it?
You let it weather (loses any water repellency), or you have to clean it.

Up here, the practical way is to scrape and prime in the late summer / fall, paint in the spring / summer, unless you want to clean the prime coat.
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Old 09-30-2017, 07:06 PM   #15
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


Interior drywall primers are a couple of threads, just by themselves. PVA primer is useless.
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Old 09-30-2017, 09:33 PM   #16
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


I should mention everyone is either dropping the acrylic semitransparent stain or reformulating it. Which gets back to the continual changes with paint formulations. You either have to go with a system with a good warrantee that you trust for exterior, or take your chances.

I used to be able to do 10 year tests on exterior paints, and switch to what worked the best - it would still be on the market and main stream. Not any more.

Interior paints are easier to deal with, but they have the same problem with continual changes.
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Old 09-30-2017, 11:38 PM   #17
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


I like applying 2 coats of primer. Then top coat.

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Old 10-01-2017, 07:46 AM   #18
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


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You let it weather (loses any water repellency), or you have to clean it.

Up here, the practical way is to scrape and prime in the late summer / fall, paint in the spring / summer, unless you want to clean the prime coat.
so much has changed. For some time in this area, the slick solution was to use an oil base primer or stain, then come back later and do an acrylic topcoat.
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Old 10-01-2017, 08:42 AM   #19
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


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...PVA primer is useless.
More than anything, painters I've known have used it to save on the cost of paint.
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Old 10-01-2017, 09:43 AM   #20
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Re: Self-Priming Exterior Paints


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so much has changed. For some time in this area, the slick solution was to use an oil base primer or stain, then come back later and do an acrylic topcoat.
That was best up here as well. Acrylics have caught up and passed traditional oils.

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