Flikka

Ok.....so I know I'm probably the 'odd' woman out here.....for more than just the obvious reason but.......

What is wrong with the HO knowing what they are paying for? Reading all the replies on the other thread makes me feel that you all meet in dark allies to discuss your business.

What works for me is pricing out each room with a cost of labour and overhead in one column and an estimate of paint in another with a grand total at the bottom of the page for each. I then add that the paint is only an estimate and is subject to change and that the price does not include the cost of supplies. I've been asked once to estimate the cost of supplies which I did.

I'll assume, that for what ever reason, this approach may not work in all markets but I've been told several times that it was the way I laid my quote out (not to mention my winning personality) that got me the job.

Cheers
Mary

mdshunk

When you ask what's wrong with breaking out your price, you show a bit of your youth and inexperience in the trades. A customer will use this as ammunition to nit-pick your price apart, and you'll be constantly "reselling" the job as it progresses. Not always, but with enough frequency that it's aggrivating. If you can sell just as many jobs with a lump sum (or, with very little breakdown), then that's what you need to do.

I'd rather think it's your winning personality that got you the job, and not your estimate breakdown. People buy good feelings... they don't buy paint jobs.

Tom R

How much was the steering wheel of your new car??

I find people who insist on breakdowns are enough of a PIA for me to go MIA . . .

Flikka

lol......ahhh for that lost youth.....but you're right I've only been in the trade for 4 years but in that 4 years time I've only ever had 1 client pick my quote apart until it was in shards on the floor......that was just a couple of weeks ago. I told her that I couldn't do the work for her and walked away. But she would have done that even if I had given her a lump sum....it's just her way and that's ok, about 2 minutes into our dance I was thinking ut oh.....never had that ut oh feeling before.

People don't buy paint jobs.....hmmm.......ok I'll give you that one. They buy me, my honesty, my ability to give good quote, I show up when I say I will, I can paint, and let the dog out to boot. I think that GeorgeZ has said that he sells his company not his painters.

Flikka

Ahhh.....but my clients don't insist on a breakdown.....they don't have to. Maybe most of them won't ever ask but because I have provided it, and I know from customer responses that it gives me a leg up.

mdshunk

Yeah, well ...duh!! No kidding. I'm sure they like the breakdown. Most would. What I'm saying is that you're "giving aid and comfort to the enemy" by doing so. I fully believe that you could sell just as much work without the breakdown, and save yourself future heartache.

Forry

I don't mind sharing my breakdown if folks ask... It's part of my estimating/bidding process anyways, unless I'm working on a sq/ft process, and in that case, I just tell 'em that. My T+M estimates always include my labor rates and my markup so people know where they're money is going, and so that upon invoicing, there's no room for arguing or disagreement about rates or markup. No mysteries for my clients. Never yet had anyone complain about my markup, but I have had a couple remark that I make a lot of money... then I give the lecture about operating costs in as much detail as I can, and before I get too far, folks are bored to tears and get the point. I don't consider it a problem to let folks know where their money is going... more of a duty.

Tom R

I find once they get a breakdown of different phases, they start getting ideas about farming this one or that one out. Then it tends to, - - if nothing else, - - interfere with my scheduling and progress.

Maybe it's just me, - - but it's ALL OR NONE . . .

Tom R

You sound nice enough, - - I'll leave that one alone . . .

Forry

I think it comes down to personal choice in the way we run our businesses... it's ok to break stuff down if that's how you want to do it. It's also ok to not do a breakdown as policy... do it how you want to if it works.

I wonder though, if the people who won't do the breakdown are offended by the willingness of others to do so? Are you scared of the honesty?

Just wondering...

Tom R

No, - - I've got no problem with anyone who chooses to break down their work.

It's not a matter of honesty or dishonesty to me, - - it's a matter of having other customers wanting and waiting to get paying work done with no extra hassles or bartering, - - so why partake??

Everyone's got to run their business the way they see fit.

mdshunk

Stop that, and I think you owe me and Tom an apology. If giving a breakdown is honest, is not giving one being dishonest? Certainly not!

The breakdown, to me, is proprietary information. It is none of anyone's business. I'm not holding a gun to anyone's head to make them let me do work for them.

If you feel the need, or even the desire, to provide a breakdown... by all means, do so. It's just not something I'm interested in doing on a bid job. T&M, different story. For bid work, you're paying for a "job", you're not paying for each step along the way. After all, overruns in one job sector might be offset by excess profits in another, and I kinda like it that way. Glad it's working out for you in painting, but if you ever get into bigger, more complex work, you'll stop that in a hurry, I feel sure.

Tom R

So, Forry, - - if you and I both bid on the same job, - - and you gave a breakdown and I didn't, - - and your price was $22,000, - - and my price was $19,500, - - would you be OK with the customer calling you DISHONEST??

Really has nothing at all to do with it, eh?? . . .

Forry

Whoa, if an apology is due, my apologies! I wasn't so much directing those thoughts at you and Tom, as I was thinking back to some heated posts on other threads. MD, your honesty is NOT in question as far as I'm concerned. I agree about bid work and not breaking things down. When I sell a job, I sell a job and that's it, I'm not selling my time or materials. I guess I was referring more to T+M work... got fuzzy in my head and in my post. I make a VERY clear distinction in my contracts, as well as in my discussion with new clients about the difference between estimated T+M work and bid work. Most clients don't seem to get it at first, and I see tons of problems with other contractors in my area who present proposals as bids and change the price later based on what things cost and how long they take.

Whoops, kind of a change of subject.

As far as bigger jobs go, I apply the same rules. $40,000 remodel, if it's an estimate, I'm comfortable discussing the breakdown. Sometimes a client needs to see where the $ is going in order to make educated decisions. It's my job to provide the information. Same for larger bids... people need to know what's in the package. Most have a budget and a job has to be tailored to fit. How can I create the best job for the client's $ if we don't sit down and talk about the #'s?

Anyways, I didn't mean to offend you. I was however hoping to stir more discussion about the topic... maybe just to clear my own thinking... maybe even to get others to question their own ways of doing things.

And MD, just because YOU are honest, doesn't mean everyone is. With T+M work people DO lie. Padding hours... unreasonable markups... who knows what other tricks... that's who i was referring to.

Do you do T+M work? If so, do you provide an estimate, or is it just whatever it takes? Do you base estimates on T+M, or some other method (sq/ft, wire runs, # of circuits)?

Anyway, didn't mean to be rude....


edit: I wouldn't think of it as an honesty thing Tom... one of us probably screwed up somehow, or maybe I just charge more. Anyway, y'all got me thinking.

Celtic

Why give a breakdown?

For starters...it takes more paper and ink

Next time you order a pizza..ask them how much is the cheese, sauce, dough...their profit on each item...and so on.

I am reasonably confident Vito will toss you right out the door.

If I am asked for a breakdown...I will - to some extent - provide one...
"Standard" Recept. @ $71.96
"Decora" Recept. @ $75.43

That's all you are entitled to get. How I break down that figure is MY business.

__________________

welovepainting

We dont breakdown prices either only when asked or required. Breaking down prices takes too long and enables them to lower your overall cost price or do the work in sections and you can't make any money like that.

__________________
House Painters Commercial Painting Contractors Cleveland, Ohio
http://www.welovepainting.com
http://www.cleveland-ohio-painting-contractor.com

ProWallGuy

Right on! My clients don't buy a paint or wallpaper job, they buy a customer service package.

Here's my breakdown:
1% Labor
1% Materials
98% Knowledge, experience, & customer service

__________________
Professional Wallpaper Installations in St. Louis
Award Winning Murals Installations

pstorey

I've started using self designed, excel estimating sheets which I'm sending along when I submit my estimate to clients. I don't see any harm in it and the guys who want to pick apart my numbers are the exact clietns I have zero interest in working for. I think these estimate sheets make a client better informed and they're especially hany wen people are comparing bids side by side.
That said, I've been doing this since 1993 without estimate sheets and done pretty well in that time too.

Celtic

I do the same...BUT..the customer does NOT get the entire spreadsheet.
They get a one page (maybe 2) printout which shows how much each item is and the extended costs for their project. This makes it easy when tracking changes.



This is pretty much what they get...this one page (cleaned up a bit, of course )

__________________

Flikka

Geez a girl goes and hangs out by the pool for a bit and all hell breaks loose.

I am laughing at the reference to my clients as the 'enemy'....what the heck is that all about? I'm having fun doing what I do and my clients certainly aren't my enemies but my temporary play mates. I'm pretty sure that I look at this business differently than most do. I'm a decorator first and painter second....sometimes third....working towards not painting at all in the next year or so (mind is willing....body is not). What we offer is a service...that comes with materials.....someone asked if I knew how much my steering wheel is.....no not right now I don't but......if it broke and I had to take my van in for repair I would get an estimate that would have the parts and labour broken down.

Finally.....as mentioned in my first post I do what works for me.....do what works for you. Just please don't get all bent out of shape because I do it my way and that I questioned yours......it was just a question.

Tom - 'A leg up'........left over expression from my horsey days.

Cheers
Mary