Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage

 
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Old 04-22-2011, 05:02 PM   #1
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Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


hey guys, I was at a repeat customer's house today, good client and does several high end marvin window units each year with me. The house has CEDAR clapboard siding over 1/2 foamboard sheathing(no tyvek, no plywood)


I know he has issues with peeling paint on the siding, even though the house was sanded, primed and painted a few years ago, he has areas where the paint actually gets water behind it and you can pop it and water runs out. I don't see where that much water gets behind the siding. the roof is newer and no visible signs of leaks inside the house. The siding isn't falling off or cracked where water could be getting behind it.

My thought it that because he has ZERO house wrap, no sheathing, that the humidity of the house is escaping through the siding and getting to the paint and can't get out. That's problem number 1.
every time I do a window, we end up replacing a bunch of siding around it.
the paint just peels right down to bare cedar in spots.

no, problem number 2,

The attached 2 car garage. when you enter the garage, the left wall is an outside wall, space above the garage is unheated, but the ceiling does have insulation in it. the right side as you enter the garage is a wall that has a heated living space on the other side.

wall on the left and the ceiling have peeling paint bad! it's coming off the drywall, especially at the seams. the right wall, ZERO peeling paint.
Now I don't believe the left wall(outside) has insulation at all, but I know the ceiling does. The paint is peeling all the way back to BARE drywall, with no appearance of primer/sealer on the paper.

What do you think is causing this and what would be the best solution to fix it. I told him the best thing is to take the ceiling down and the left (outside) wall to the studs/joists. Insulate the outside wall. and install vapor barrier on both, then install new drywall again, tape, prime/ seal then paint?

anyone think of something else that can be done? the paint is so flaky and peeling on the ceiling and left wall that I don't think it can really be saved and it would probably take more prep work than just putting new drywall up.

thanks in advance!!

I wish I could talk him into removing all the siding, and foam board sheathing, sheathing with CDX , house wrap, then new hardie plank prefinished. I don't think he wants to spend that kind of $$. He had the whole place painted a few years ago and this is not a small house either.
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Old 04-22-2011, 05:08 PM   #2
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


Sounds like moisture or water got in there...

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Old 04-22-2011, 05:56 PM   #3
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


but the drywall doesn't have water damage on it, no stains, no drips, nothing. the paper is dry and not soft/rotted.

the siding part yeah. water is getting in those bubbles of paint somehow. but i'm not sure where it's coming from at this point. the garage is where i really need to figure out the best solution. i've never seen drywall peel to bare paper like it was new.
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:09 PM   #4
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


Unheated garages should be painted with exterior primer/paint. If new construction, doubt that was done. Before I tear out walls, I would remove what you can, prime and repaint with exterior products and keep your eye on it.
In the areas of the worst peeling on the siding, what rooms are on the other side of the most failed areas? Curious if the "bags of water", I've seen them before, with no apparent source of external penetration, are opposite a bathroom or laundry room.
Does the house have proper ventilation with respect to soffit/ridge vents?
I'm not a builder, but doesn't foamboard have some vapor barrier effect?
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:57 PM   #5
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


I don't think this foam board is a real vapor barrier as it's not taped and it's only 1/2 thick. I am not the painter for the homeowner. He just asked me what was causing the peeling paint.

Weird thing about the water in the siding(which is not near the garage at all. is that there is no bathroom near there. There are soffit vents and gable end vents, in the summer, the thermostatic fan kicks on when it get hot enough. No ridge vent but it's not really needed with the soffit and gable vents.

it's just very odd in the garage to have one wall be completely normal that has heat on the opposite side and then the one that is just cold on both sides be peeling.
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Old 04-22-2011, 08:53 PM   #6
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


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Originally Posted by ApgarNJ View Post
I don't think this foam board is a real vapor barrier as it's not taped and it's only 1/2 thick. I am not the painter for the homeowner. He just asked me what was causing the peeling paint.

Weird thing about the water in the siding(which is not near the garage at all. is that there is no bathroom near there. There are soffit vents and gable end vents, in the summer, the thermostatic fan kicks on when it get hot enough. No ridge vent but it's not really needed with the soffit and gable vents.

it's just very odd in the garage to have one wall be completely normal that has heat on the opposite side and then the one that is just cold on both sides be peeling.
Paint doesn't fail in the cold because it's cold, it fails because it's not the proper finish for the cold. I've known painters to paint unheated garages with interior paint. Wrong! Interior paint can't handle large temp ranges. Obviously the heat coming through the one wall is enough to stabilize the finish. Ask the guy who painted the garage and what product they used. Or, the cold and a lack of proper primer could be a possibility.
The problem with moisture failure is that damage doesn't always occur in a logical relation to the source, unlike rain coming through a hole in the roof and damaging a ceiling. And the smallest of breaches over the long term can cause significant damage even before it's discovered. It sometimes takes thinking outside the box and close examination of all joins and portals. A job I would leave for those responsible to fix.
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Last edited by jsheridan; 04-22-2011 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 04-22-2011, 09:01 PM   #7
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


well. if i wasn't trying to fix the paint. i wanted to tell him to tear out the drywall and put new drywall in, then have it painted properly.
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Old 04-22-2011, 09:12 PM   #8
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


However you go about resolving the issue just be sure to use exterior paint because, even after all that replacement, if the garage is unheated failure is still a possibility. As I said, the little bit of heat coming through the right wall is probably enough to offset the cold side and keep the paint surface temp out of the extremes.
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Old 04-22-2011, 09:46 PM   #9
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


Quote:
Originally Posted by ApgarNJ View Post
but the drywall doesn't have water damage on it, no stains, no drips, nothing. the paper is dry and not soft/rotted.

the siding part yeah. water is getting in those bubbles of paint somehow. but i'm not sure where it's coming from at this point. the garage is where i really need to figure out the best solution. i've never seen drywall peel to bare paper like it was new.
It don't have to show signs of water, sometimes if enough moisture will gets behind the rock, the tape will start to come off and just a matter of time before the moisture gets behind the paint and it will bubble. Same thing you will see on older windows with a few layers of paint, the paint will crack, bubble and peel away, or the paint looks good, and if you touch it, your finger will go right through, because the wood will start to rot from inside out.
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:28 PM   #10
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


I just noticed this a NJ specific thread, where are you from Greg?
Where is Stockton, in north jersey?
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:31 PM   #11
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


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I just noticed this a NJ specific thread, where are you from Greg?
Where is Stockton, in north jersey?
Central Jersey, near Princeton
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:38 PM   #12
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


I"m originally from Philly, just outside near Media.
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Old 04-23-2011, 02:23 AM   #13
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


Extreme temp changes of +/- 10-15F can cause interior paint to fail over time. like 6 months.

I have been witness to this first hand in my shop, after switching completely over to wood instead of using the natural gas furnace + the wood. I do keep the building above freezing all winter however the temp varies widely, sometimes going down to 40F and then rising back up to 65F. in a single day.

And the paint on the cieling is coming off in sheets LOL
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Old 04-23-2011, 05:51 AM   #14
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


Stockton is on the western side of the state, right along the delaware river. I am in the zipcode of stockton but not in the boro. The boro is right near the river, I'm about 2 miles from the river. Lambertville and Flemington are the closest bigger named towns you might know.

Greg, you are near princeton? I work over there every so often, and the surrounding areas.
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Old 04-23-2011, 07:24 AM   #15
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


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Stockton is on the western side of the state, right along the delaware river. I am in the zipcode of stockton but not in the boro. The boro is right near the river, I'm about 2 miles from the river. Lambertville and Flemington are the closest bigger named towns you might know.

Greg, you are near princeton? I work over there every so often, and the surrounding areas.
New Hope, Lumbertville, nice area, we go up there for dinner in the summer time and hit a few bars, they also got some nice restaurants... about 20 min from me.
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Old 04-23-2011, 07:37 AM   #16
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


For the siding peeling, is the foam foil faced and does it peel more in areas that get direct sunlight?
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Old 04-23-2011, 07:49 AM   #17
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


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For the siding peeling, is the foam foil faced and does it peel more in areas that get direct sunlight?
yes, foil faced and yes it does get more sun on the back side of the house. but there is still pockets of water stuck in the large bubbles of the paint.

i see what you are saying though. it's heat being radiated off from the foil.

thanks!
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Old 04-23-2011, 01:15 PM   #18
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


Moisture condenses on the foil and migrates through the cedar pushing all coatings off. Seems to happen most on sun facing sides due to how moisture condenses as temperature changes more radically.
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Old 04-29-2011, 06:22 PM   #19
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


first of all you have to correct the moisture problem. There seems to be three issues here. One , question would be , how old is the siding. If it isn't dried properly , it will release moisture until the siding has had time to dry out. Second, the house may not be vented properly. In colder areas people usually have a open foundation and metal vents are placed in the block walls there. Some homes have roof vent and are vented that way. Either way, you have to have a release for all the heat building in the house. Other wise it's like a boiling pot of water, ever seen the moisture on the outside of a pot with a lid on it ? Third and not lease, under the foam board you HAVE to have a rubber or foil membrane , or the siding will continue to sweat and the wood will rot away. The house may already be insulated well enough, but not vent as it should be.The paint isn't the issue here, stop the moisture. Then repaint with 100% acrylic primer and paint . I sure hope something is helpful.
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Old 04-29-2011, 07:00 PM   #20
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Re: Peeling Paint In Unheated Garage


the house is from the 1980s, the siding coming off is not going to happen, at least with this owner. he has gable vents and a powered thermostatic roof fan, along with soffit vents. I believe it's the foil faced rigid foam. how builders got away with sheathing walls with just foam is beyond me. that has got to be the stupidest way to sheath a wall. it's one thing to have foam over plywood, but there is a vapor barrier. tthis house has no vapor barrier other than the foam insulation board. I also believe that the siding might have caulk under each lap. I was at another job this past week and the painters were there, the east/south facing side of the house had just a few spots where the paint was bubbling. This is an insulated house. older farm house, with felt paper behind the siding, which was installed in 1997, rest of the walls have no issues. The painter there said it was because someone took caulk and caulked all the laps in the siding. He was in the process of removing most of that caulk so the siding could breath.
I think this might be the same culprit at the original house I was talking about. the isn't NEW there, so it has had time to dry out. I just think there is moisture coming from inside that isn't escaping out the roof for whatever reason. or the foil faced foam board is radiating heat back through the siding and causing the paint to peel and bubble.

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