Okay, I Give Up... What's The Inside Joke With Behr Paint?

abacab

behr is no longer rated #1 by consumers reports. It is now Dutch Boy, and I've used it (just on my mom's house)and like it way better than behr. It went on easy, didn't drip or sag, covered well and dried flat. What I want to know is what is consumers reports doing wrong (if they are wrong) in their testing of behr paint? Consumers reports is not about opinions, it's supposed to hold out in tests. Sometimes I think people hate behr paint only because it's bought at HD, but they don't have anything but opinion to back up their claim. Personally I don't like it because of it's thickness, but that says nothing about how it will fade or wear in the long term.

Farmall

Think about who's at the top of the list now. Dutch Boy - and were is that sold primarily? At the largest box store known to the civilized world - Walmart. I am not so sure that I would put a lot of faith in the consumer reports testing lab. I think they are nothing more than a popularity contest, to see who is willing to send them the most $$$$

Couple of years ago, I actually tried the DB paint on a ceiling project, it wasn't all that impressive, the primer is terrible imo.
I used Behr paint once on a project, I don't plan on using it again, as has been widely noted the problems far out weigh any positives it may have. I think they should change the term to "spread" instead of "flow".

Tom Cornett

I think the company misspelled their product. It should be called "BARE" because it is barely paint. It is the only paint I ever wanted to apply with a hammer! If you use it...I would recommend that you cut each gallon with five gallons of H20 and use it for flushing toilets on job sites where the water is shut off. A customer told me that the salesman told her it was a top of the line paint. I said,"Yeah....how short was this guy?"
Seriously...I won't use it again.

LJSMITH1

Seriously, if you guys are so convinced that Consumer Reports can't be testing these products properly or fairly, then why don't you pick up the phone or email them and explain your concerns and total disbelief. Maybe they can explain what they do a bit better and how their testing methods are in line with many industry standards.

Consumer Reports 1-800-879-9848
http://custhelp.consumerreports.org/...lPTE!&p_srch=1

Here's some background reading first...

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/a...test/index.htm

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/a...aint/index.htm

Some of you guys really need to think about the fact that CR is a national publication and is exposed to tremendous scrutiny by those Manufacturers that have products which do not perform well in whatever comparison testing they publish. Do you really think that they are 'paid off' to make one mfr's product look better than another? Could you imagine the lawsuit that would happen if that were true? Defamation, Slander...etc...They certainly would not be in business anymore.

Remember Suzuki? They sued CR and were unable to prove that CR did anything wrong.

July 2004 NEWS UPDATE:
Suzuki and Consumers Union Agree on Dismissal of Lawsuit
We want to thank our readers who have supported Consumers Union throughout the course of this litigation. The case has been dismissed by joint agreement, and it cannot be re-filed. We no longer suggest that you write to Suzuki or General Motors about the case. CU continues to stand fully behind its testing and report on the Samurai, has issued no retraction or correction, and has paid nothing to Suzuki.

Bottom line...if you want fair and un-biased testing on products, CR is the closest thing you have without having to do it yourself.

When one of you does make the call, do us all a favor and let us know if the testing is up to your standards...

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Larry

ProWallGuy

I don't think its a "proper" or "fair" issue, its the fact that they test and rate products to criteria that satisfies the DIY'ers needs, not what a pro painter would look for or bother with.

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Wallpaper Hanger St. Louis
Digital Murals Installation

LJSMITH1

What evidence do you have to back up that statement? Do you know all the details of how they test these coatings? Do you know how the test criteria is established? So far, all I have read is anecdotal accounts from various folks that have no basis in science or standardized testing. As far as durability or weatherability, I think they have that covered. I would hope a pro-painter would be concerned with the performance of the paint, and not just the application.

If they don't already include an application evaluation (i.e. "paintability") maybe you should suggest that they could add it to their mechanical or environmental tests.

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Larry

abacab

I've heard (and taking it at face value) that Consumer Reports is pretty solid, as far as being unbiased, etc. I don't necessarily agree with their testing methods, as accelerated testing says nothing how its going to perform in the blazing sun over a long period of time. It's still the best we have for making comparisons.

LJSMITH1

Accelerated testing is an acceptable method even in military specification testing. In a previous life, I conducted MIL-SPEC salt-spray (fog) testing to simulate high-humidity, corrosive environments. They are in some cases - worse than real-world applications. Also, UV exposure and thermal cycling tests are typically a factor worse than actual exposure. When it comes to paint, plating, or other types of coatings, accelerated testing is the only way to determine 'probable outcome of coating condition' over a period of time without having to actually go through the actual time (sometimes in decades). I am sure if there is a better way of testing coatings without having to wait 10 years, it would be done already (and is). CR is independent and certainly does reasonable testing and analysis.

I know someone that felt that his high priced Fisher&Paykel dishwasher was the BEST in cleaning the dishes - yet he admitted that sometimes had dishes that needed to be cleaned again. He claimed that it is completely normal and happens with every dishwasher. I told him that CR came out with an evaluation and says it's mediocre and unreliable at best. Well, this guy completely loses his mind and proceeds to bash CR for 1 hour. I had one of the better rated models (a Maytag) and it did a fantastic job - never had to rewash anything. The bottom line is that this guy could care less about what some 'test' showed. He was convinced that just because he paid a lot of $$$, that his appliance was the *best* in doing what it did. Wrong...

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Larry

ProWallGuy

All right now, slow your roll. Maybe you mistook what I said, or I wasn't clear enough. The word "criteria" probably threw you. Lets just say that the things they are pointing out or giving ratings on, are not things that matter much to a professional painter. Lets take a look:

This is a scan from the March 2009 issue regarding INTERIOR PAINTS.
This first page show the "test results" which are:

Hiding
Surface smoothness
Staining
Scrubbing
Gloss change
Sticking
Mildew
Fading
Claimed VOCs




The second page I have pointed to their definitions of the test results:



I will go over these one at a time, giving their definition and then my opinion on it.

Hiding - Reflects how well a paint covers a contrasting color with one coats and two coats. (The one coat results are weighted more heavily.)

Most pro painters give two coats as a minimum. Especially if going over a contrasting color. And further, if its that much of a contrast, a primer is used. The only people who care if anything covers in a coat is a husband who is doing this on his weekend and wants to done before the game comes on in the afternoon. So no, hiding doesn't really matter to me.

Surface smoothness - represents an absence of roller marks when the paint is dry.

Do I really need to comment on this? Roller marks are caused by crappy covers and/or application error. I can take crappy paint and with good skills and a decent roller cover and make it look good. Pro painters don't even consider this. Suzy Homeowner does because she wants it to look like a pro did it (and in one coat too.)

Staining- shows how well a paint resists a greasy stain

I don't care what kind of paint you use, you get grease on it, its going to stain. This is something else a pro really wouldn't consider when choosing a product, unless it was to be applied behind the fryer at your local fast food joint, or in a auto mechanics shop.

Scrubbing - shows how a paint holds up to an abrasive cleaner.

I don't care what kind of paint you use, abrasive cleaners should never be used on them. If a customer asked me to supply a coating that will stand up to an abrasive cleaner, I would suggest FRP panels, because paint ain't going to cut it. Now I DO like to know if a paint is washable, because that is acceptable, but CR suggesting an abrasive cleaner is fairly ridiculous.

Gloss change - notes the change in appearance when a paint is cleaned with a hard surface cleaner.

I'm not sure exactly what a "hard surface cleaner" is, but I will accept this one as a decent test result. A good quality paint should still look good (gloss and all) after being gently washed with a mild detergent (which is what the customers are told in regards to maintaining their finish.) I don't ponder this when spec'ing a product for a job.

Sticking - indicates a paint's tendency to not remain soft or tacky even when dry.

I really don't recall and interior paint ever remaining soft or tacky after a full cure, ever. Now, if they are talking about "blocking", when two freshly painted surfaces touch, and tend to stick (like door to frame), now I'd be interested in that. But I don't think they were going there with this one though. Maybe a couple DIYers have had issues where it didn't dry down right, or felt sticky? Who knows...

Mildew - is the paint ability to inhibit mildew growth.

Sure, that is a good thing. But mold and mildew have been on this earth since the dawn of time and spores are everywhere. If you have food, moisture, and oxygen, you can have mold. Doesn't matter what type or brand of paint it is, if those conditions are met, you have mold. It would be nice to know if a certain product would inhibit the growth more than others, but when it comes to picking a product for a area that might be pre-disposed to mold growth, a pro generally picks a kitchen & bath type paint which has mold inhibitor added in, or adds an inhibitor in themselves. I'm 50/50 on this result.

Fading - reflects the lightening of color when a paint is exposed to UV light.

Yes, that is a good quality for paint. But its way more important for an exterior paint, not an interior one. Why it is included for interior paints is odd. In my 20+ years of brush slinging, I don't recall hardly any interior jobs where the paint had obviously faded in areas from the sun. Again, definitely a must for exterior applications, but not very necessary in this category. I'm 50/50 on this one too.

Claimed VOCs - indicates the manufacturer's stated level of volatile organic compounds in the untinted base coat, measured in grams per liter (g/l).

I'm not yet hip to the green movement, so I'll go with this one. I'm sure low/zero VOCs can't be a bad thing. Love your Mother Earth...

It then talks about price, which is the approximate retail cost per gallon. A pro doesn't care about price as they aren't paying for it, KWIM?

Then it says they also do a test for spattering, which is not shown in the ratings, but is a small part of the overall score. Now that is a test I'd be interested in. The more detergents in there, the more it spatters. That just plain sucks.

Anyways, just making my point, like I said in the first place:
And while I'm at it, you are not a contractor, but a manufacturer. WTF are you even doing on this site?

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Wallpaper Hanger St. Louis
Digital Murals Installation

chris n

Tim, Well said

Steve Richards

Just last week during an estimate, I told a guy I'd be using Ben Moore, he gave me a funny look and said "is that anywhere near as good as Behr?". I just said yes...but I wish I'd had ProwallGuy there to give him a lecture.

I'm pretty sure that guy will continue looking until he finds a painter that will use his beloved Bear paint, and that's fine with me.

LJSMITH1

Pro-Wall Guy...

If I do my own walls and trim with 2 coats of a paint and the proper applicator, does that make me a pro? How about if the cuts are straight as an arrow, and I have no runs or missed spots, and a smooth surface that doesn't look like orange peels or have brush strokes everywhere.... Just asking...

How about if the homeowner is not as smart as you when trying to clean up their kids artwork on the freshly painted walls you just completed - and they don't use plain water and a supersoft chamois towel? I guess they are calling you back for a touch up every time? I am also sure they won't be happy to pay for it again...

What about sunlight through windows? Are you really sure no UV exposure is occurring INSIDE the house? Not everyone has Low-E or reflective coatings in their window glass.

My point is, that for every test that CR did, I think a majority of them would concern you AND your customer. So whats the problem?

Like I said before, contact CR and explain what additional, meaningful tests YOU would like to see. Maybe it would benefit all of us and expose Behr and/or other paints for the crap that they supposedly are.

Heres a good article explaining the pitfalls of CR paint testing (or any other snapshot testing for that matter)..and the attitudes against Behr and other low-priced brands. I wonder why they didn't mention Cabot stains, which I have on my own house.
http://www.consumersearch.com/exterior-paint/review

BTW...I am in this particular thread because I like to learn new stuff - even if it doesn't involve my direct line of work. Being an engineer, I am always asking questions... I hope thats ok with you....also, for the record, I have absolutely no ties to CR, Behr, Home Depot, Walmart, Lowes, Sherwin Williams, Benjamin Moore, Pratt & Lambert, or any other company mentioned in this thread.

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Larry

Paintpimp

After requests about their testing procedure, CR doesnt publish how they perform their tests. They may or may not follow ASTM standards on paint performance. One aspect they do not cover that I wish they would is burnishing. Color place burnishes just by breathing on it. How about washability with colorant coming off on the rag.(I bet they would find Aura and Duration a little better than they rank). Lastly, how come they rate SW so low, but the paints they make are higher rated, Sears, P&L, Dutch Boy, hmmm. As far as their procedures, do they paint out a room, or does a robot apply a thin strip on a paper for roller marks and coverage. It would be nice if they did blind tests with a variety of opinions (diy, painter, engineers).

Steve Richards

Couple tests I'd like to see...

Give a (pro) painter 3 identical rooms w/trim, 3 identical sets of tools, and 3 unlabeled (BM, SW, Behr) cans of paint. See if he can pick out the Behr.

Better yet, have one guy from CR paint 1 or 2 hundred rooms with Ben Moore, then have him paint 1 or 2 with Behr, and then get his opinion.



My own personal experience.. I once leaned a (Behr flat interior) loaded roller up against a wall , and went to the next room to grab a piece of masking paper for some base.
When I came back, the paint on the roller had started running down the wall in one giant (yet somewhat beautiful) cascading sag.
I'd never seen latex flat paint do that before (except when I got my first spray rig, but that's another story). I've seen oil-based do it. That's why I'd never lean an oil-loaded roller up against a wall and leave the room.


BTW
I got a set of Ryobi tools for Christmas a couple years ago. The drill in that set still works and I use it on a pretty regular basis. Should I go over to the carpenters forum here and tell those guys what good tools Ryobi makes?