Need to know for estimating - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Brian · 01-05-2006, 12:37 PM

What are the 5 items you regard as the most important for a new estimator/ salesman to know? And why?

Brian Phillips

DecksEtc · 01-05-2006, 04:23 PM

You'll need to be a bit more specific as to what area of construction you're referring to.

Brian · 01-05-2006, 04:50 PM

What are the 5 items you regard as the most important for a new estimator/ salesman for a painting company to know? And why?

Brian Phillips

**ProWallGuy** · 01-05-2006, 07:32 PM

All right Brian, I'll bite.

1. Our production rates
2. Our prices
3. Our company's level of commitment to service and quality
4. What we will or won't do
5. Our short and long term goals for the future

My 2¢

Oops, I forgot the 'and why' part.
I reckon if they know all these things, they will better serve the company to help it achieve it's goals, grow at a projected rate, and flow with the system.

Brian · 01-05-2006, 08:19 PM

ProWallGuy,

Thanks for your reply. I tried to be careful in the way I worded the question but maybe I should explain more.

I am currently training a salesman who has no experience in the painting industry. He's sold foundation repair and advertising, but not painting. I will soon be training someone with painting experience, but little sales experience, for a similar position.

I've spent about 25 hours with the first guy, and the progress seems slow to me. I've realized that I am probably trying to teach him too much too soon.

So, if I can teach him the basics he needs to know to go out and estimate jobs, what would that be? On the other side, if I take someone with knowledge of the industry, but not estimating/ sales experience, would would he need to know? I don't want a huge list, just a few really key things that, with coaching and help from me, they need to come back from the customer with.

I have a very extensive training program. But it's not accomplising what I want, primarily because I think it's too extensive. I'm looking to hit the important things only, and build from there.

I realize my first question was vague. I hope this makes it a little clearer.

Brian Phillips

**ProWallGuy** · 01-05-2006, 09:17 PM

All right, I bit the first time, now I'm chewing on it.

I stick with my 5 above for someone who has a painting background, but knows little of estimating/sales. Maybe swap one or two of them for more sales technique, closing, etc., and being a 'people person'.

As for a guy with no painting history, that would be tough. Let me sleep on it and I'll answer that one in the a.m.

Harry · 01-05-2006, 10:16 PM

Brian,

Let's start with the two important items.

1) He needs to know how to come up with the right price.

2) He needs to know how to sell a job.

Where do you want to go from here?

Let me add that this person has to have common sense and should possess good communication skills.

Harry Carter

**Nathan** · 01-05-2006, 10:25 PM

WOW, a Harry and Brian spotting all in the same day!

Good to see you guys back here.

Harry · 01-05-2006, 10:40 PM

Nathan, thanks

This is an interesting topic because I come from the commercial sector and Brian is from the residential sector.

I'm either going to teach or learn or both

Thanks,
Harry Carter

**slickshift** · 01-06-2006, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian

I am currently training a salesman who has no experience in the painting industry....
I've spent about 25 hours with the first guy, and the progress seems slow to me. I've realized that I am probably trying to teach him too much too soon.

So, if I can teach him the basics he needs to know to go out and estimate jobs, what would that be?

25 hours of classroom time won't cut it
The crews and foremen will hate him
Not because he's a bad guy, but because he will mess things up for them, or sell things that shouldn't be done, and he doesn't know how it works in the field
Three weeks out with the crews, helping out, doing coffe runs, maybe even doing some painting, that'll help
I'd suggest six weeks, but three will help

Mike Finley · 01-06-2006, 10:06 AM

If I had a sales position to fill - and if I had to choose between a person having experience at sales or painting. I would always choose the person having experience at sales every time. A good painter won't necessarily ever learn to sell. A good salesman can sell anything.

A good salesman doesn't need to know how to paint, he does need to know how to sell his product, and if the best way to do that is to do some work in the field then so be it, but I still say a good sales manager should have a sales program in place that teaches a good salesman from outside their field how to sell painting. Any good salesman will have the ability to learn his products pros and cons and all the intricacy's that make it unique. A good sales manager will make sure that there is a carrot and a stick approach that makes it clear to the salesman that not learning his product will seriously impact his income potential. These are commonly referred to as charge backs or being AR'ed (accounts receievabled) in sales. Financial rewards and punishments are the most effective means of teaching a good salesman your industry. A good salesman doesn't care if he gets charged back for something as he is learning, he realizes it is part of the process, he learns from his mistake and doesn't make it again. The financial punishments insure that he can't make a living with your company f#cking up day in day out. He either has to get really good at selling for you or he has to find a new job. The better the system you have in place the less baby sitting you will need to do with your salesman. You can concentrate on motivating them and increasing profits.

Sales is a performance based job not a hourly production job. If your salesman can't be one of the top paid people in your organization because of his own lack of commitment, then he should just pick up a brush and earn the same lower income of the painters.

Brian · 01-06-2006, 12:42 PM

Mike,

Thanks for the comments. I don't disagree with you at all.

The issue I've run into is that there are so many things to cover--types of substrates, types of materials, prep procedures, repair procedures, etc. Add to that the issues of measuring, getting information from the customer, answering the customer's questions, our sales process, and more, and it can become overwhelming to a new hire.

And that's what I've been seeing. So I'm rethinking my training program and approach to make it less overwhelming. Thus my question about the most important 5 things to know. In short, I'd like to focus on a small number of topics, get him very proficient on those, and then build from there.

Brian Phillips

Harry · 01-06-2006, 02:14 PM

Brian,

When the heck to you know when he's figured it out? When you see if you made or lost money on a project?

You know, years ago, my Dad hired a programmer to write software. I will tell you that it was a wild ride because my Dad wasn't a programmer and the programmer knew nothing about estimating.

Sure, it got done but it took a long time and a whole lot of money.

What do YOU do in the beginning in regards to wondering or knowing what he or she is doing right or wrong?

At what point do you let this person loose with your money? After all, it IS your money.

You know, the estimator is the most dangerous and powerful person in your company...

Thanks,
Harry Carter

rws · 01-07-2006, 11:27 PM

Why not 1 estimator and 1 salesman working as a team learning together ?

Mike Finley · 01-07-2006, 11:36 PM

Brian, if I ever got to the point of hiring a sales person I always invisioned the system being made up of a combination of 3 parts, the training, a pay plan designed to reward and punish and 30 days of ride along with every sales call he went on, with critiques and nudges in the proper direction. The ride alongs might be totally naive to think time would allowit but it just seems so damn important since as Harry pointed out salesman are so either beneficial or dangerous to your companies bottom line.

Brian · 01-08-2006, 07:13 PM

Mike,

I appreciate your insight.

I do have a training program in place and it's very extensive. I'm beginning to think it's too extensive which is the reason for this post.

I pay a straight 10% commission and the salesman is responsible for most of his sales expenses. It's pretty clean in that area.

The ride alongs are really practical for this particular individual, though we are trying to make more possible and practical.

The real issue that has come to light is-- there are thousands of details that could be trained. But how many of them matter on 90% of the jobs? In other words, I'd like to be able to get him to estimate 80%-90% of the jobs ASAP. Most jobs are pretty standard. I'll hold his hand for the other 10%- 20%.

I've been doing this so long that I've lost site of the basics. I'm trying to go back and remember, but I thought a post here might help.

I do appreciate your help.

Brian Phillips

Harry · 01-09-2006, 09:58 AM

"I do have a training program in place and it's very extensive. I'm beginning to think it's too extensive which is the reason for this post."

Brian,

About how many times have you used your "extensive" training program successfully?

You said..."I've been doing this so long that I've lost site of the basics. I'm trying to go back and remember, but I thought a post here might help."

Brian,

I'm confused.

Are you trying to re-write a training program that works in a shorter amount of time, rather than use your "extensive" program?

Thanks,
Harry

Paul Burns · 02-12-2006, 05:05 PM

Brian, Gung Ho! Have you read that little book and about the geese cheering each other along and working as a team?

IMO, the teamwork part is extremely important, and the teamwork and/or relationship between the production crews and the person(s) doing the estimating for them is a place that shows REAL FAST how important teamwork is.

I like the idea of a production person riding along with the estimator at first, or however long they need them. I've done this myself, and I think it is kind of what you are doing now. Even though we may not be part of the production in the field right now, we still use our experience for the training.

I also tell the trainee, that I will stay with them, do all or none of the talking, go in the house, or stay in the truck for as long as they want me too, but I am also getting 1/2 of the commission while I ride with them. This makes them want to get rid of me ASAP. Of course every does.

Now that I won't be able to ride with them, we are going to put a production person with the drive and brains to get out of the bucket themselves to ride with a new estimator and hopefully become one themselves, or a production manager that doesn't paint. Either way, he/she will be out of the bucket. As a mmatter of fact, one of them is on a plane to our place in Florida at this very moment to train for a week with me. But when he goes back, he will be training someone himself.

As far as this guy goes, he has been selling change orders for us for several years. He has also sold some jobs from time to time of neighbors and that sort of thing and of course received the 10% commision for selling them.

But if we were to just let someone loose that didn't know the production people and speak their language, and know what they want, etc., I think it would be much harder.

This is one of those "begin with the end in mind" things that we were hoping to accomplish someday. We have tried to "season" several production people over the years, and hopefully this guy will work out okay. If he doesn't, we'll have to go to plan B which will be either me or another production person riding along, so that thye can help the estimator AND relay what is happening during the estimating to the production people.

I can't really explain everything here. It's just too intertwined. IOW, everybody in the company, or individual shops, almost HAS to depend on everybody else or the whole thing will collapse. Of course it can and is being done with micro-managing, etc., but this is just how I see everything working, and is really just an extension of how we have been doing things for last 12 years anyway. We tried some of the other ways for 10 years before this, andd so far it is like night and day. I'll let you know if it continues.

That's my 2 cents. For this specific point, the relationship between the estimating and the production depts, has to have a lot of trust and understanding of each other. And it also boils over into marketing, sales, earnings, and everything else.

Paul