Levels Of Workmanship?

cutnroller · 01-29-2006, 05:55 PM

Years ago one of the first guys I ever worked for had a system in place where he would calculate his price based on one of his 3 levels of "quality" that he could provide. He simply called it level 1, 2 or 3 and when we (the grunts) first went in to do a job he would let us know which level he expected. Basically 2 was the standard, 1 was basically a splash and dash and 3 was for superior finish work in higher end homes/businesses. Seemed like a great system to me at the time as it made it clear to us painters as far as time and materials etc.

I have mentioned this method to other contractors I've worked for since then and it usually gets a fairly cold response. I'm not sure if the response is due to it just being a plain bad idea, or if it was simply them not wanting to take advice or field ideas from a worker. Most guys that I have worked for seem to do a little of each "type" or "level" or "quality" of work based on circumstance and their own agendas, so I always wondered why more people didn't use this method of pricing.

Personally, I always tried to do the best possible work and would like to think that i will always provide top quality to everyone, but perhaps I'm being too optimistic and reality will come and bite me on the butt.

Now that I'm getting ready to run my own show, this issue has resurfaced in my thoughts and again I am pondering the pros and cons of it. Do any of you use a similar system or have experience with it, and could you offer any advice one way or the other?

George Z · 01-29-2006, 06:20 PM

Instead of charging more per hour, per different jobs,
you allow more hours in your labour budget for jobs with more prep,
custom work etc.

jmgallagher · 01-29-2006, 06:41 PM

The costs of doing business is the same no matter if you use level 1,2 or 3.

Do yourself a favor and figure out your "true costs" of doing business. Dont follow that guys system it's bogus!

The costs are different between Re-Paint or New Construction. Figure out what it costs you to do both.

Dont lower your standards according to YOUR estimate. You give the estimate. YOU know what it costs to do a quality job. Dont sacrifice your quality because YOU gave a low estimate just to get the job. That is piss poor business pratice. And that is what gives this industry a bad name.

Wheather it is an 200,000 dollar home or a 1,000,000 dollar home. With the same scope of work...The cost for you to apply the paint is the same.

YOU are the "professional"

Always do quality work.

Thanks,

Joe

donb1959 · 01-29-2006, 06:43 PM

I only have one level of service that's excellence. I always bid my jobs to be able to give a superior job. I think to start offering 3 levels of service is to put your reputation out there as a hack. And I'm not sure even how a contractor could qualify a customer as a 1-2-3 client, it's confusing enough running your own business witout confounding the matter.

I know that there are those that can afford a top quality job, and those that can't, but my reputation rides the line every time I do a job, so I only do high quality work.

DecksEtc · 01-29-2006, 07:02 PM

At first, I took cut's post to refer more to quality of materials as opposed to quality of workmanship but then after re-reading it, I really don't think the term "splash and dash" is the best philosophy - regardless of the business you're in. I'm not a painter by trade but I wouldn't recommend lowering your standards of workmanship.

In my business there are changes to less expensive materials and options that will help sell a job to a customer's budget i.e. nailing deck boards instead of screws (I do not recommend this but it will save them money), using lattice for skirting, using pressure treated decking, less costly railing styles, etc.

...just my humble opinion.

**ProWallGuy** · 01-29-2006, 07:08 PM

I agree with (and do) what cutnroller is suggesting. But no customer will ever know if they got the 1, 2, or 3 version of my service. I don't give them an option, it is my job as the estimator/salesman to tailor that job/price to the client.

It all boils down to fitting the job to the customer's wants and needs. If I go into a multi-mil $ home, I spec out the appropriate job regarding materials, and labor, and certain steps for production. They would be getting the #3 treatment. I also go into a 150k home, and the homeowner would like to get it painted to sell. I spec out the job according to those needs. This might be a #1 job. Whether its 1, 2, or 3, I get my price and make a profit. It is all layed out in the customers contract (scope of work), and mirrored in the work order. The production team knows what to do for each job according to the scope or work order.

jmgallagher · 01-29-2006, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DecksEtc

.

In my business there are changes to less expensive materials and options that will help sell a job to a customer's budget i.e. nailing deck boards instead of screws (I do not recommend this but it will save them money), using lattice for skirting, using pressure treated decking, less costly railing styles, etc.

...just my humble opinion.

Excellent thought...

We as painters can also offer lower materials to fit the budget. (of course we try to sell premium... materials are cheap.. labor is expensive) But our workmanship and the quality should stay the same. That goes across the board to ALL trades!!!

Thanks,

Joe

AAPaint · 01-29-2006, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donb1959

I only have one level of service that's excellence. I always bid my jobs to be able to give a superior job. I think to start offering 3 levels of service is to put your reputation out there as a hack. And I'm not sure even how a contractor could qualify a customer as a 1-2-3 client, it's confusing enough running your own business witout confounding the matter.

I know that there are those that can afford a top quality job, and those that can't, but my reputation rides the line every time I do a job, so I only do high quality work.

Very well said. To me it's all top notch quality or nothing at all. There are more reasons than just reputation. I don't want to return to any job once it's done, unless we're adding on more work, period. Another is my pride alone. I will NEVER do something that would allow another painter to look at in the future and say anything negative about it, or find anything wrong. The AA (Adam Austin) in AA Quality Painting means my name is on everything we do, and everything we do is to my standards which meet and often exceed accepted industry standards and mfg's recommendations.

ron schenker · 01-29-2006, 07:28 PM

I just did a 2 bedroom rental apt. reno in a 9 plex. The investor bought it cheap mainly because it was a dump, but it earns just shy of $50,000/yr in rent. One unit was empty and he wanted me to do a low budget job to get it rented. It was a pig sty, repaired and painted every wall, redid the bathroom and kitchen, replaced all flooring, etc. When it was done it looked 99% better and rented immediately for $250.00/mth. more than previously! Had I quoted him a higher price for top quality, I would not have gotten the job (plus 8 more units eventually). I am still making good money, not worried about a little slip of my brush cutting in, the landlord is happy, and so is the tenant. My point is...you don't always have to do an immaculate job.

mdshunk · 01-29-2006, 07:38 PM

Not having varing levels of workmanship to coordinate with the type of customer and building is like shooting yourself in the foot. You'll price yourself out of an aweful lot of work. A rental property firm, for instance, neither needs or wants top quality work.

jmgallagher · 01-29-2006, 08:31 PM

There is no such thing as a perfect paint job.

I hope I dont offend you Pro but... what is puzzling to me is why painters drop down to the mantality of "splash and dash" just because someone is selling there home??? Even if the sellers wants a "cheap" job. That dont make any sense.

We as "Professional" Painters should have our own systems in place to accommidate different projects without sacrifising Quality or Workmanship. And still making a profit. There are MANY faster, easier ways of doing things without skipping steps and Hacking.

I guess some of us have different "Standards" than others.

Thanks,

Joe

cutnroller · 01-29-2006, 09:00 PM

To add a little more info.....

This particular contractor not only used this system internally, but would break it down for potential customers. It was all there plain as day for them to see. The customers knew which level of service they were getting, and all that came with that. For instance I think the warantee would be significantly reduced or wiped out depending on the circumstance.

We did (mostly) very high end restoration/repainting of turn of the century heritage homes and were highly regarded for our work, but also did a fair amount of rentals, maintenance work and small jobs in the winter months to keep busy. I appreciate the fact that he tried to keep us busy and working, and if he offered different levels of service in order to achieve that then so be it.

This post was not so much to ask whether you all do or don't do this internally, because I know we all do it to a point, but how much you work this into your sales pitch if at all, and how much you may let the customers in on this system.

I want to make clear that I am neither endorsing or dismissing this practice, and that he is the only one I have seen do this. I get the impression that some of the posts are written from the standpoint that I am doing this or endorsing this and that is not the case. I ALWAYS do quality work. I would never encourage anyone to do poor quality work.

I believe a good painter (or any tradesperson) is a good painter plain and simple, and it would be very difficult for a good painter to do poor quality work. (at least this is the case with me personally) So the actual application of paint to surface really boils down to the person doing it.

I know how to take a 100 year old wood frame with 15 coats of paint on it and make it look brand new, but not everyone is willing to pay for that level of craftsmanship. Should I pass up the job unless they are willing to pay top dollar for a complete restoration? Should I chew out one of my workers when it takes him 8 hours to do a door frame? Also, when times are tough, and my top painter has a couple kids to feed and work is scarce, is he going to understand when I tell him I passed up the job because they didn't want to pay top dollar? Hell if it meant keeping a good worker, I would take a little hit on the profit just to keep bread on his table.

This 1,2,3 level system seemed to be more there for the customers and making them feel good about what they were getting, and I can tell you that myself and most of the guys working with me would always give 100%. It seemed like the rich customer in the multi-million dollar home was very happy about paying top dollar and the resulting finish, just the same as the slumlord was very happy to pay next to nothing for a very basic paint job with the not so perfect finish. I just thought this 1,2,3 method was implemented by him to deal with these very different customers.

phinsher · 01-29-2006, 09:15 PM

I tend to agree most with ProWallGuy. I agree, don't discuss the A,B or C quality with the customer. Nobody wants to think they are getting C quality work.

That being said no one in their right mind should be treating an old scratched up masonite door the same way they would treat a brand new $4,000 Walnut door. Just isn't realistic.

To me this discussion begs the question "What is quality?" To me it breaks down into several areas

1) Was the procees performed correctly? This is one aspect of quality, did you prime raw wood? etc

2) Asthetic Quality How much effort is put into making any surface look its very best?

Here's an example. Lets say you have a piece of simple 1 by 4 finger jointed pine.

If its clean you could prime then apply 2 coats of paint, lets say a total of 30 minutes with clean-up included.

Or you break out the bondo, skim all the finger jointed areas, Break out the palm sander sanding it perfectly smooth, tack it off. Then prime then break out the lacquer putty and skim any defects found by side lighting the surface. Then sand all the putty, then tack it again, then reprime over the last putty, actually just reprime the whole board to deal with any exposed raw wood during the last sanding. Then lightly sand again, then tack, then apply a coat of the finest paint available, then sand lightly, check again for any defects that made it through your previous attempts, if all is well then apply a second coat of paint and your done, well unless you consider the fact that a third coat of paint provides a better lookin finish. etc Total time = your guess is as good as mine.

Fact is both were performed correctly, but there is an obvious difference.

I'd say for anyone doing exactly the same work on everything that you've probably found a happy medium that tends to satisfy most people, however there is another world of fine finishes out there that you just couldn't justify on a 200/month rental unit.

AAPaint · 01-29-2006, 11:39 PM

I must back pedal a little and agree with phinisher because he has more clearly stated what I was thinking than I could. Yes, the level of detail is different but the proper application is never compromised....and we charge accordingly.

**Teetorbilt** · 01-30-2006, 12:38 AM

I have a friend who retired quite comfortably doing rental rehab paint. He sprayed everything white, didn't give a crap about latex over oil, just shot everything white. Retired in 10 yrs. There IS money in crap jobs.

Glasshousebltr · 01-30-2006, 08:06 AM

Cut, why would you open the door to the problems that could pop up from leading your employee's to believing that you sometimes except lower standards of workmanship?

If it's rental, I just say "Hey fellas, this is rental but keep it nice and clean." and leave it at that.

Not only that, but training for a new guy could really suffer if you except sub standard.

Bob

GEB7678 · 01-30-2006, 12:30 PM

I always keep in mind the level of quality I will be performing, best, bester, and bestest, but I never let the customer know. its just something I keep in the back of my mind. I also have to know what type of customer Im dealing with. You've got hawkeyes who take a magnifying glass to the wall or the type that are just happy its another color or not so dirty anymore. I also have to deal with their budget, If they can afford the time it takes for perfection then they get it.

jmgallagher · 01-30-2006, 01:39 PM

This is a general post... not speaking to anyone paticular....

I agree with AA and phinisher as well as ALL posts to a certian extent each...

I will add a few more things...

If you scope out a project to "skip" steps that shouldnt be skipped...

Example: Not priming, putting latex over oil without proper prep, Not prepping at all, etc etc..... No matter what type of place it is or how much YOU priced it out for... I think that is bogus!

Im not saying treat "every" project the same (thats common sense)... and there is no such thing as a perfect paint job... they are all different and have different scopes of work... But like I said above you shoulnt SKIP steps...there is only one way to apply paint... the right way!

Scope accordingly (the right steps) and price accordinly.

My point is that if you are going to "skip steps" and "Hack" your way through business just to max out your profits. I think that is bogus and you shouldnt be in business.

What if someone Hacked your house? It would be a different story then,Right?

I treat everything as I want to be treated. Quality!

I dont do rental units "I'd rather do nothing" than be seen doing those.

I guess it all boils down to Standards, Professionalism, Integrity, and Ethics...

Its hard to come by a True Quality Professional Painter today!!!

It seems that most on this forum are Professional... I guess the whole "splash and dash" hit a nerve. It would be imposible to have every "professional" painter agree on the same standards. But I dont think "splash and dash" should be one of them... no matter what!!

It's disapointing to think that people actually "ASK" for low quality!

I think its great to toss ideas and opinions around and keep it clean.

Thanks,

Joe

copusbuilder · 01-30-2006, 03:49 PM

I have some customers that have investment (rental) properties. There is no way they want to paint the house with the same quality and materials they would use on a more valuable home. Every 3-4 years we go in and replace the carpet and paint the homes.
I would not stoop to latex over oil with no prep but I do have different standards regarding quality. After all Mercedes could be the best car on the market but it wouldn't be the right car for a McDonalds employee?

In a perfect world we could all strive for perfection....But this ain't a perfect world

PlainPainter · 01-30-2006, 05:59 PM

What's funny is when I redo apartments in really old homes with that old dingy windows with ten layers of paint. I find that the easiest way to do a 'cheap' apartment type job is to use oil trim paint. I mostly use latex trim paint - and do lots of prep. But with oil paint in cheap rental property - you don't have to sand, clean or dust the woodwork - oil paint will adhere great kill dark stains stick to exposed wood and generally give the trim a pretty decent face-lift. Funny - using oil trim for cheap rental type paintjobs - but it works. Cheap ceiling paint, no sanding, no dusting, oil trim paint, super-spec eggshell for walls - don't even bother sanding walls or washing all that crap that develops in tenement housing. And in the end - it actually looks pretty decent.

-plainpainter

The above refers to when I am in 'ghetto' mode, when work is far and few in between in these cold wintery months. I will even turn the heat down to 50 degrees, and then cut in the superspec wall paint and then roll - it goes on so thick, that it covers amazingly in one coat. And since it's so cold - it takes hours to dry and there is absolutely no flashing between the cuts and rolling.

01-29-2006, 06:20 PM	#2
George Z View Profile George Z Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,836) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Painting Contractor Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,836	Re: Levels Of Workmanship? Instead of charging more per hour, per different jobs, you allow more hours in your labour budget for jobs with more prep, custom work etc. __________________ Toronto Painters Commercial Painting Commercial Painting Toronto Toronto Office Painters Painting Toronto Blog

01-29-2006, 06:43 PM	#4
donb1959 View Profile donb1959 Don Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (677) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Don Trade: Paint Contractor Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Winston Salem NC Posts: 677	Re: Levels Of Workmanship? I only have one level of service that's excellence. I always bid my jobs to be able to give a superior job. I think to start offering 3 levels of service is to put your reputation out there as a hack. And I'm not sure even how a contractor could qualify a customer as a 1-2-3 client, it's confusing enough running your own business witout confounding the matter. I know that there are those that can afford a top quality job, and those that can't, but my reputation rides the line every time I do a job, so I only do high quality work. __________________ I fish therefore I am http://www.shimmerz.biz

01-29-2006, 07:02 PM	#5
DecksEtc View Profile DecksEtc Deck Designer/Builder Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,426) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Deck Designer/Builder Trade: Construction Project Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Whitby, Ontario Posts: 2,426	Re: Levels Of Workmanship? At first, I took cut's post to refer more to quality of materials as opposed to quality of workmanship but then after re-reading it, I really don't think the term "splash and dash" is the best philosophy - regardless of the business you're in. I'm not a painter by trade but I wouldn't recommend lowering your standards of workmanship. In my business there are changes to less expensive materials and options that will help sell a job to a customer's budget i.e. nailing deck boards instead of screws (I do not recommend this but it will save them money), using lattice for skirting, using pressure treated decking, less costly railing styles, etc. ...just my humble opinion.

01-29-2006, 07:08 PM	#6
ProWallGuy View Profile ProWallGuy Back from the dead... Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (6,544) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Back from the dead... Trade: Paperhanger/Painter Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 6,544	Re: Levels Of Workmanship? I agree with (and do) what cutnroller is suggesting. But no customer will ever know if they got the 1, 2, or 3 version of my service. I don't give them an option, it is my job as the estimator/salesman to tailor that job/price to the client. It all boils down to fitting the job to the customer's wants and needs. If I go into a multi-mil $ home, I spec out the appropriate job regarding materials, and labor, and certain steps for production. They would be getting the #3 treatment. I also go into a 150k home, and the homeowner would like to get it painted to sell. I spec out the job according to those needs. This might be a #1 job. Whether its 1, 2, or 3, I get my price and make a profit. It is all layed out in the customers contract (scope of work), and mirrored in the work order. The production team knows what to do for each job according to the scope or work order. __________________ Wallpaper Hanger St. Louis Digital Murals Installation

01-29-2006, 07:28 PM	#9
ron schenker View Profile ron schenker Home Improvement Guy Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,479) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Home Improvement Guy Trade: Renovations contractor Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: toronto,Canada Posts: 1,479	Re: Levels Of Workmanship? I just did a 2 bedroom rental apt. reno in a 9 plex. The investor bought it cheap mainly because it was a dump, but it earns just shy of $50,000/yr in rent. One unit was empty and he wanted me to do a low budget job to get it rented. It was a pig sty, repaired and painted every wall, redid the bathroom and kitchen, replaced all flooring, etc. When it was done it looked 99% better and rented immediately for $250.00/mth. more than previously! Had I quoted him a higher price for top quality, I would not have gotten the job (plus 8 more units eventually). I am still making good money, not worried about a little slip of my brush cutting in, the landlord is happy, and so is the tenant. My point is...you don't always have to do an immaculate job.

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01-29-2006, 05:55 PM	#1
cutnroller View Profile cutnroller rocknroller Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (69) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity rocknroller Trade: Residential/Commercial Painting Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 69	Levels Of Workmanship? Years ago one of the first guys I ever worked for had a system in place where he would calculate his price based on one of his 3 levels of "quality" that he could provide. He simply called it level 1, 2 or 3 and when we (the grunts) first went in to do a job he would let us know which level he expected. Basically 2 was the standard, 1 was basically a splash and dash and 3 was for superior finish work in higher end homes/businesses. Seemed like a great system to me at the time as it made it clear to us painters as far as time and materials etc. I have mentioned this method to other contractors I've worked for since then and it usually gets a fairly cold response. I'm not sure if the response is due to it just being a plain bad idea, or if it was simply them not wanting to take advice or field ideas from a worker. Most guys that I have worked for seem to do a little of each "type" or "level" or "quality" of work based on circumstance and their own agendas, so I always wondered why more people didn't use this method of pricing. Personally, I always tried to do the best possible work and would like to think that i will always provide top quality to everyone, but perhaps I'm being too optimistic and reality will come and bite me on the butt. Now that I'm getting ready to run my own show, this issue has resurfaced in my thoughts and again I am pondering the pros and cons of it. Do any of you use a similar system or have experience with it, and could you offer any advice one way or the other?

01-29-2006, 06:41 PM	#3
jmgallagher View Profile jmgallagher Member Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (37) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 37	Re: Levels Of Workmanship? The costs of doing business is the same no matter if you use level 1,2 or 3. Do yourself a favor and figure out your "true costs" of doing business. Dont follow that guys system it's bogus! The costs are different between Re-Paint or New Construction. Figure out what it costs you to do both. Dont lower your standards according to YOUR estimate. You give the estimate. YOU know what it costs to do a quality job. Dont sacrifice your quality because YOU gave a low estimate just to get the job. That is piss poor business pratice. And that is what gives this industry a bad name. Wheather it is an 200,000 dollar home or a 1,000,000 dollar home. With the same scope of work...The cost for you to apply the paint is the same. YOU are the "professional" Always do quality work. Thanks, Joe Last edited by jmgallagher; 01-29-2006 at 06:44 PM.

01-29-2006, 07:38 PM	#10
mdshunk View Profile mdshunk DGR,IABD Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (9,680) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity DGR,IABD Trade: Electrical; Commercial and Residential Service Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Central PA Posts: 9,680	Re: Levels Of Workmanship? Not having varing levels of workmanship to coordinate with the type of customer and building is like shooting yourself in the foot. You'll price yourself out of an aweful lot of work. A rental property firm, for instance, neither needs or wants top quality work. Last edited by mdshunk; 01-29-2006 at 07:42 PM.

01-29-2006, 08:31 PM	#11
jmgallagher View Profile jmgallagher Member Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (37) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 37	Re: Levels Of Workmanship? There is no such thing as a perfect paint job. I hope I dont offend you Pro but... what is puzzling to me is why painters drop down to the mantality of "splash and dash" just because someone is selling there home??? Even if the sellers wants a "cheap" job. That dont make any sense. We as "Professional" Painters should have our own systems in place to accommidate different projects without sacrifising Quality or Workmanship. And still making a profit. There are MANY faster, easier ways of doing things without skipping steps and Hacking. I guess some of us have different "Standards" than others. Thanks, Joe

01-29-2006, 09:00 PM	#12
cutnroller View Profile cutnroller rocknroller Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (69) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity rocknroller Trade: Residential/Commercial Painting Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 69	Re: Levels Of Workmanship? To add a little more info..... This particular contractor not only used this system internally, but would break it down for potential customers. It was all there plain as day for them to see. The customers knew which level of service they were getting, and all that came with that. For instance I think the warantee would be significantly reduced or wiped out depending on the circumstance. We did (mostly) very high end restoration/repainting of turn of the century heritage homes and were highly regarded for our work, but also did a fair amount of rentals, maintenance work and small jobs in the winter months to keep busy. I appreciate the fact that he tried to keep us busy and working, and if he offered different levels of service in order to achieve that then so be it. This post was not so much to ask whether you all do or don't do this internally, because I know we all do it to a point, but how much you work this into your sales pitch if at all, and how much you may let the customers in on this system. I want to make clear that I am neither endorsing or dismissing this practice, and that he is the only one I have seen do this. I get the impression that some of the posts are written from the standpoint that I am doing this or endorsing this and that is not the case. I ALWAYS do quality work. I would never encourage anyone to do poor quality work. I believe a good painter (or any tradesperson) is a good painter plain and simple, and it would be very difficult for a good painter to do poor quality work. (at least this is the case with me personally) So the actual application of paint to surface really boils down to the person doing it. I know how to take a 100 year old wood frame with 15 coats of paint on it and make it look brand new, but not everyone is willing to pay for that level of craftsmanship. Should I pass up the job unless they are willing to pay top dollar for a complete restoration? Should I chew out one of my workers when it takes him 8 hours to do a door frame? Also, when times are tough, and my top painter has a couple kids to feed and work is scarce, is he going to understand when I tell him I passed up the job because they didn't want to pay top dollar? Hell if it meant keeping a good worker, I would take a little hit on the profit just to keep bread on his table. This 1,2,3 level system seemed to be more there for the customers and making them feel good about what they were getting, and I can tell you that myself and most of the guys working with me would always give 100%. It seemed like the rich customer in the multi-million dollar home was very happy about paying top dollar and the resulting finish, just the same as the slumlord was very happy to pay next to nothing for a very basic paint job with the not so perfect finish. I just thought this 1,2,3 method was implemented by him to deal with these very different customers.

01-29-2006, 09:15 PM	#13
phinsher View Profile phinsher Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (249) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Paint and wallpaper Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 249	Re: Levels Of Workmanship? I tend to agree most with ProWallGuy. I agree, don't discuss the A,B or C quality with the customer. Nobody wants to think they are getting C quality work. That being said no one in their right mind should be treating an old scratched up masonite door the same way they would treat a brand new $4,000 Walnut door. Just isn't realistic. To me this discussion begs the question "What is quality?" To me it breaks down into several areas 1) Was the procees performed correctly? This is one aspect of quality, did you prime raw wood? etc 2) Asthetic Quality How much effort is put into making any surface look its very best? Here's an example. Lets say you have a piece of simple 1 by 4 finger jointed pine. If its clean you could prime then apply 2 coats of paint, lets say a total of 30 minutes with clean-up included. Or you break out the bondo, skim all the finger jointed areas, Break out the palm sander sanding it perfectly smooth, tack it off. Then prime then break out the lacquer putty and skim any defects found by side lighting the surface. Then sand all the putty, then tack it again, then reprime over the last putty, actually just reprime the whole board to deal with any exposed raw wood during the last sanding. Then lightly sand again, then tack, then apply a coat of the finest paint available, then sand lightly, check again for any defects that made it through your previous attempts, if all is well then apply a second coat of paint and your done, well unless you consider the fact that a third coat of paint provides a better lookin finish. etc Total time = your guess is as good as mine. Fact is both were performed correctly, but there is an obvious difference. I'd say for anyone doing exactly the same work on everything that you've probably found a happy medium that tends to satisfy most people, however there is another world of fine finishes out there that you just couldn't justify on a 200/month rental unit.

01-30-2006, 12:38 AM	#15
Teetorbilt View Profile Teetorbilt Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (10,475) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Residential Contractor Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Jensen Beach, FL Posts: 10,475	Re: Levels Of Workmanship? I have a friend who retired quite comfortably doing rental rehab paint. He sprayed everything white, didn't give a crap about latex over oil, just shot everything white. Retired in 10 yrs. There IS money in crap jobs. __________________ You can't solve you're problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems. Albert Einstein

01-30-2006, 08:06 AM	#16
Glasshousebltr View Profile Glasshousebltr Custom Builder Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (4,403) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Custom Builder Trade: From dirt to ridge vent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: South Central Illinois Posts: 4,403	Re: Levels Of Workmanship? Cut, why would you open the door to the problems that could pop up from leading your employee's to believing that you sometimes except lower standards of workmanship? If it's rental, I just say "Hey fellas, this is rental but keep it nice and clean." and leave it at that. Not only that, but training for a new guy could really suffer if you except sub standard. Bob __________________ Bob

01-30-2006, 12:30 PM	#17
GEB7678 View Profile GEB7678 Home Repair & Improvement Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (52) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Home Repair & Improvement Trade: Home Maintenece and Repair Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Marlborough, MA Posts: 52	Re: Levels Of Workmanship? I always keep in mind the level of quality I will be performing, best, bester, and bestest, but I never let the customer know. its just something I keep in the back of my mind. I also have to know what type of customer Im dealing with. You've got hawkeyes who take a magnifying glass to the wall or the type that are just happy its another color or not so dirty anymore. I also have to deal with their budget, If they can afford the time it takes for perfection then they get it. __________________ One call to fix it all www.gebconstruction.com

01-30-2006, 01:39 PM	#18
jmgallagher View Profile jmgallagher Member Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (37) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 37	Re: Levels Of Workmanship? This is a general post... not speaking to anyone paticular.... I agree with AA and phinisher as well as ALL posts to a certian extent each... I will add a few more things... If you scope out a project to "skip" steps that shouldnt be skipped... Example: Not priming, putting latex over oil without proper prep, Not prepping at all, etc etc..... No matter what type of place it is or how much YOU priced it out for... I think that is bogus! Im not saying treat "every" project the same (thats common sense)... and there is no such thing as a perfect paint job... they are all different and have different scopes of work... But like I said above you shoulnt SKIP steps...there is only one way to apply paint... the right way! Scope accordingly (the right steps) and price accordinly. My point is that if you are going to "skip steps" and "Hack" your way through business just to max out your profits. I think that is bogus and you shouldnt be in business. What if someone Hacked your house? It would be a different story then,Right? I treat everything as I want to be treated. Quality! I dont do rental units "I'd rather do nothing" than be seen doing those. I guess it all boils down to Standards, Professionalism, Integrity, and Ethics... Its hard to come by a True Quality Professional Painter today!!! It seems that most on this forum are Professional... I guess the whole "splash and dash" hit a nerve. It would be imposible to have every "professional" painter agree on the same standards. But I dont think "splash and dash" should be one of them... no matter what!! It's disapointing to think that people actually "ASK" for low quality! I think its great to toss ideas and opinions around and keep it clean. Thanks, Joe

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01-30-2006, 03:49 PM	#19
copusbuilder View Profile copusbuilder Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,358) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Builder/Remodeler- Master Electrician Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Crockett Texas Posts: 1,358	Re: Levels Of Workmanship? I have some customers that have investment (rental) properties. There is no way they want to paint the house with the same quality and materials they would use on a more valuable home. Every 3-4 years we go in and replace the carpet and paint the homes. I would not stoop to latex over oil with no prep but I do have different standards regarding quality. After all Mercedes could be the best car on the market but it wouldn't be the right car for a McDonalds employee? In a perfect world we could all strive for perfection....But this ain't a perfect world __________________ www.copusconstruction.com www.etexasrentals.com www.thelakevoice.com AkA Richard Cranium

01-30-2006, 05:59 PM	#20
PlainPainter View Profile PlainPainter Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (431) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 431	Re: Levels Of Workmanship? What's funny is when I redo apartments in really old homes with that old dingy windows with ten layers of paint. I find that the easiest way to do a 'cheap' apartment type job is to use oil trim paint. I mostly use latex trim paint - and do lots of prep. But with oil paint in cheap rental property - you don't have to sand, clean or dust the woodwork - oil paint will adhere great kill dark stains stick to exposed wood and generally give the trim a pretty decent face-lift. Funny - using oil trim for cheap rental type paintjobs - but it works. Cheap ceiling paint, no sanding, no dusting, oil trim paint, super-spec eggshell for walls - don't even bother sanding walls or washing all that crap that develops in tenement housing. And in the end - it actually looks pretty decent. -plainpainter The above refers to when I am in 'ghetto' mode, when work is far and few in between in these cold wintery months. I will even turn the heat down to 50 degrees, and then cut in the superspec wall paint and then roll - it goes on so thick, that it covers amazingly in one coat. And since it's so cold - it takes hours to dry and there is absolutely no flashing between the cuts and rolling.