Dave Mac

Just wondering how many of you out their actually measure every unit to be painted.

I write down everything, but just eyeball, for example front of house 5 hrs to paint boxing. Or front of house 10 windows 5 hrs to paint.

This system works pretty good since i have been doing it a long time, and only do repaints.

But I see a lot of company's in my area, that hire people with no painting experience just to estimate, and they seem to measure everything, wich im begining to think is a more fair way to estimate, especially if you have subs or paying piece work.

So wich way do you estimate??? and do you have any tips on the measuring way. I would really like to see a computer program that you plug in your numbers like 10 exterior window, they are in good condtion, 6over 6 and the computer spits out the estimate, anyone know whear to get such a program.

thanks
dave mac

Dorman Painting

I normally eyeball any job that's under 5 grand or so, if I think it's a six to ten thousand dollar job or even bigger, I'm taking notes. On your ten windows that are six over sixes and in good shape I came up with a quote of $1080.00 and that includes a gallon of paint.

foreverlcj

Hi How do i charge for painting an interior of an apartment

lornmastro

i do take general measurements to determine how much paint to buy...and do measure trim...but for painting the walls ceilings i usually eyeball it...a room with 4 walls no windows and doors on any of those walls(wouldn't that be nice) would take me far less time than painting a small bathroom with hardly any wall space but tons of things to trim around. i honestly don't get that price per square foot thing....

Dave Mac

Yea that sort of leads to one of my next question, lol their has to be a way to factor in the difficult level. such as a room whear your only painting the walls, but have 15 windows to cut around verses, one window, Im guessing you can estimate how many actual linear ft that has to be cut in, and you have to have history of the painters production for cutting in, on easy colors around 100-125 linear ft per hr, their has got be a program out their for this type of stuff.

anyways thanks for the input guys, eyeballing has been working fine for me, Im just wanting a more scientific way.

thanks
dave mac

slickshift

Eyeball

I'll measure to be more precise for actual paint purchase, to check myself, or because the H/O might need to be shown I'm not just guessing
Lol
Seriously, I usually know what I'm going to charge when I first eyeball it

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Originally Posted by ModernStyle I have never used this crap before and I pray to the paint gods that I never have to use it again, I would rather use Behr

electro

"We measure what we treasure"
There are 2 things to know to make money in this business.
1. Your costs of doing business.
2. Your production rates.
Most contractors only have a slight handle on 1 of these.
Example,
It will take 1 day to paint this room and I want to make $ 200.00 per day.
For the owner/operator who doesn't care if a day is 8 or 9 or 10 hours and his costs of operating are low that's fine.
But what happens once you add employees? Now there's a big difference if a day is 8 or 9 or 10 hours. Now what does that day cost you.
If you measure everything that gets done on a job and assign a production or time factor to it, know your true costs to operate your business. You have removed the WAG factor which is what the majority of contractors who take your work away by wild pices do.

Good luck
Electro

Grumpy

If nothing else, even if youc an eyeball accurately, measuring will build confidence in the mind of the customer.

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Chicago Gutters Chicago Roofing

AAPaint

Wow...I'm not surprised. None of my competition measures. They go in "aaah, you're looking at 3 grand"...I measure everything, take notes on all doors, windows, trim, damage to be repaired, etc. I don't miss one iota. Then again, I'm trying to run a profitable business, and get a handle on the two things electro mentioned; production rates, and real world costs. I track as much as I can (come on, I'm one man) when we do a job. I get comfort in knowing that my prices are fair to both me and the customer, my paint estimates are accurate, and there is no guessing.

The truth of the matter is, I'm HAPPY that my competition does that stuff. I go in with a laser measurer (that is actually accurate) and a laptop, and give the customer a professional consultation.

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AA Quality Painting & Pressure Washing LLC
Jacksonville Painters
Jacksonville, FL.

Dave Mac

Great can you give me some tips on the way you measure things, such as things that are not easy to measure, for example.
the siding that is 20 ft in the air above a garage over the rough??

just looking for tips, on the harder stuff to measure, anybody can count windows, and doors.

what about the boxing , you can measure the linear foot, but how do you know how thick it is.

I appreciate any suggestions

thanks
dave mac

electro

Here's some suggestions on measuring.
Let's take the example of a wall thats 20 ft. wide by 2 stories (20ft) high. From the ground to 8 ft. you can use a step ladder so you only need the production rate for rolling a normal wall. Let's use 250 sf per hour.
Next the 2nd floor will require a extension ladder. Your reach on an extension ladder is about 4 ft. So you will need 5 ladder moves at 10 minutes apiece (sound reasonable) next the rolling of the 2nd floor walls. Maybe 25% less production than the 1st floor.
So in summary it would look like this,
Total wall space 20 x 20=400sf
1st fl 20x8=160 160/240= .25 man hours
2nd fl 20x12=240 240/180=1.33 man hours
Ladder moves 5 moves x 10min.= .83 man hours

Total man hours to paint wall 2.41 man hours

Last factor to consider. You only get 6.5 hours of actual labor in an 8 hour day. I hope I didn't overwelm you.

Electro

slickshift

It takes you two and a half hours to paint a 20' x 20' wall?

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Dave Mac

hmm I think i get what your trying to say, but you say use 250 as a production rate and it looks like your using 240 ?? 160/240= .25, other then that i see what your saying, and im guessing only experience and production history can give you a number that decreases the production from the first floor to the second.


electro when you do a estimate do you have a computer that has a program that spits out the numbers??

electro

Yes, we have a spreadsheet that we use in our office.
It addresses all possibilties, number of coats difficulty factors every type of wall type we cover. It is tied into a digitizer that takes the quantities off the blue prints. We are a commercial paint company.

To the other gentleman's questions, I am comfortable that this is a realistic number. Of course new open construction would change the factors. But you need to use what works for your company, for your clients.

Electro

Paul Burns

I would have to say that there are big differences in estimating residential re-paints, new work and commercial work.

I have been estimating re-paints for over 25 years using the unit/eyeball system which works very well.

On occassion, I will measure "for show" as Grumpy mentioned, but only a handfull of times in all those years.

We can do 30K+ estimates and have it in the clients hand within an hour of starting and maintain a 33% closing rate with a gross profit of no less than 50% and usually much higher.

Since we use subs and pieceworkers to do our production, the jobs come in UNDER budget 98% of the time. The further under budget, the more the painters earn and the higher our gross profit becomes.

If I had to guess at the number 1 and 2 problems of painting contractors, number 1 would be paying their labor and other employees hourly or salary. Number 2 would be never trying to find out how high they can charge to do their jobs. In other words, most contractors will figure the least amount they can charge hourly, and/or their production rates, and then they stay there, never knowing if they could be getting 10-60% or more on most jobs. But I like that too. Lettem keep on, keepin on.

I've been posting this stuff for about 10 years now with hardly any interest from others at all being shown. My life changed from night to day on the first day of the OJ hearings, however long ago that was. For 12-15 years before that, I never made any REAL money. Now I am proving that it can be done in anywhere USA.

How many here thing that there systems are good enough to move and not have to worry? Or at least be confident of making it in the new neighborhood. I'm talking residential re-painters.

TIA.
Pawl

AAPaint

Paul, I'm really interested in your idea of piecework. How can I implement this like NOW? What do I have to buy? Where can I get all the information on systems like these so that I can have them up and running asap? I could use some help like that.

I come to this site for one thing, mostly. To hear how other successful contractors are making the good money, and how I can duplicate the same type of thing. I'm all ears.

BTW, I do think I could move just about anywhere and be successful because I've done everything I have now from scratch....literally. Not scared to do it again if I had to.

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AA Quality Painting & Pressure Washing LLC
Jacksonville Painters
Jacksonville, FL.

George Z

Poor Paul has been asked that a few hundred times in the past few years
and he keeps answering almost every time.
I have searched his posts in discussion boards and it's all in there.
In fact search his posts here, there is a lot of information about it.
We have been using a "fixed rate" type of compensation system
with the hourly being guaranteed and somehow everything
comes in under budget. Also the charged hourly rate is always
lower than the actual rate at the end.
To make it work, you must be out of the bucket though.
If not, you really just have a job, working for a maniac.

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Paul Burns

That's the kind of thinking that can take you anywhere. I think. What I mean is that I was scared all of my life, almost, and it held me back. I remember one of the first painters that I worked for telling me that if I learned the trade, I could move anywhere and find work. That was true. But when I became an owner, I felt that I was tied to that area. Wrong Again!

You will need to e-mail me or call 703-470-7263 and have a little patience. There are others in front of you, but making the switch CAN be like turning on a light switch. But, do it your way, and it may be like re-wiring the whole house.

Pawl

Paul Burns

George,

I am sure and know of painters that make money while paying by the hour, and others salary, but I think that company's like yours that are profitable are more of the exception than the rule. At least it is in the company's that I have witnessed.

Congrats on your success and I hope it continues forever! I'd also like to know how you do it! Would you consider more simple than complex or the opposite?

TIA,
Paul

George, I may havwe read your post wrong. Are you saying that you have a guaranteed hourly rate with a bonus if finished on time or earlier?. If so, I woul consider that a version of piecework. If I am correct, can ALL painters earn more than an hourly figure, or are the bonuses split up amongst the top people?

TIA,
Pawl

lornmastro

subs and piecework....makes so much sense!!!!....thanks paul for giving me some answers....will continue to read/learn and start to keep much closer track of my production rates....then i'll have lots of questions...what other forums have you posted on this subject...want to learn,learn,learn.got to love this forum.!!