Estimate - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

410tip · 05-22-2009, 02:44 PM

Is anybody else getting nickel and dimed to death this summer?

Last cheapskate offered this:

A real estate agent I grew up with calls me to go bid his personal house that he is renovating. He lives in the sticks, I drive an hour out there to bid it, of course he has me help him move appliances as I get there.
Anyways, 2,000 square foot house. Inside work with all new dry wall and flat thick millwork. Different color ceiling and walls. Standard millwork procedure(caulk, brush edges, tape up, spackle, sand, prime, red putty, sand, final, top coat). I bid $2850 for inside work.

Outside: Thirsty siding, minor scraping sanding, priming, fair amount of caulking, paint decks, and underneath of deck. Apply top coat of Superpaint to body and resilence to trim. Going to us an estimated 20 gallons on body and 3 on trim, and 4 on decks. $3,100

He calls me and says he'll give me $2,000 to spray his ceilings, cut him straight lines(he'll paint the walls), do his millwork and doors(10 doors, 12 windows, 10 door jams, and baseboards. Remove wallpaper and texture a bedroom. Plus he wants to buy the paint on my account to paint his walls.

Then he proceeds to tell me how I'm too expensive on the inside and outside(claims he got a 1800 bid on the exterior.).
I tell him he has a 50 dollar gas bill coming his way. I'd basically be paying him $700 to have the opportunity to work on his house. Some people.

NAV · 05-22-2009, 02:57 PM

Sounds like you have to start qualifying your leads before you drive an hour to bid. I know he is your friend but you should have told him you are not the cheapest.

DavidNTX · 05-22-2009, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 410tip

Then he proceeds to tell me how I'm too expensive on the inside and outside(claims he got a 1800 bid on the exterior.).

And if he looks around he can find someone to do it for 1500 and then 1200. You can always find a better price if you look, especially if you are willing to tell the competition the price they need to beat and quality has no consideration. If he is really looking out for himself he would get a 3rd bid without telling the prices and see who is closer in line.

I would explain this to him and tell him that somewhere the quality of the paint job has to come into play. If he is looking for the cheapest price, you are the wrong guy. If he is looking for a good job at a fair price then you are who he wants.

Sometimes it helps to make a list of everything you plan to do and the time and material requirements. It doesn't even have to include pricing. That gives him the option to compare apples to apples or to continue on with the reflection of his colon in his eye.

Too bad it was supposed to be a friend but I wouldn't look back. People like that tend to be the jobs with the most problems. Be happy that he showed you this before he owes you a couple of thousand bux. That might be the makings for a whole new thread.

Jordy3738 · 05-22-2009, 06:14 PM

Yes, even after reducing my hourly rate by $15 a customer though I was too high. Go figure?

I drove out to the beach and it was a condo overlooking the Gulf of Mexico. They wanted the cabinet remodel completed in a three week period from the day I met.

I submitted the bid the next day and they thought I was too high. Can you believe it

DavidNTX · 05-22-2009, 07:48 PM

It depends on what you charged and what you are doing. I don't know if what you mean by a cabinet remodel is replacing the cabinets, refinishing them or what or what you charged.

Presentation is a huge part of the sale. It is easy to say I will do x for z dollars but it might require steps a through w to make x happen. It helps if people see exactly what they get for their money.

Saying I will repaint your cabinets or even prime plus 2 coats might not be enough, especially if going from a natural finish. It is important to spell out any extra steps needed to be sure adhesion isn't a problem or the fact that cracks on some natural finished wood doesn't show up until it is painted. This might require extensive caulking that just isn't noticed with an untrained eye. Let them see how much time each step will take also. Give them something they can put their arms around and understand.

This also gives them something to use for comparison and maybe even questions to ask your competition if they get another price.

As far as a price reduction if your price actually reflects your overhead and markup then I don't see how it can be reduced. Insurance, taxes, trucks, the cost of estimating and driving to the Gulf to give estimates...

All of these costs continue. Explain to them that without proper insurance they will be at risk of being sued if someone on the job gets hurt and that is built into your price. Explain these other overhead costs to them so they will understand that when you charge $35.00 an hour that it isn't $10.00 for an employee and $25.00 for your pocket. There is actually a lot of other costs involved. Tell them everything you possibly can about the job.

If you did all of this and they still think you are too high then it sure isn't worth arguing about. I'm sure they won't be satisfied with a half a job and you won't be satisfied with a half a price.

In these days of a tough economy there are more and more people doing less and less work, even people with no experience. People don't have as much money to spend and will look for a better deal. Sometimes it takes us helping them understand what all is involved in a good deal and show them it is us giving them that better deal, even if they have a lower price.

How was your trip to the beach?

We Fix Houses · 05-22-2009, 08:04 PM

I'm doing a deck reskin right now. Too expensive he says.....Well I say there might be a way to reduce a couple of hundred bucks ?.......That's a lot of money he says..... I'm thinking...wow...???

I call back. Met his budget if he can deal with the scrap and debris. I'll cut it all down to <5 ft. He can bundle it up and put it out with the trash over time. (About 3 months) Its all piled up next to his house now.

410tip · 05-23-2009, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidNTX

And if he looks around he can find someone to do it for 1500 and then 1200. You can always find a better price if you look, especially if you are willing to tell the competition the price they need to beat and quality has no consideration.

So true. Russians and mexicans are working under the table here. Alot of them are putting LLC on their business cards and working cash deals. Not that I'm against a cash deal, here and there. Wasting time our time is the nature of the beast, but friends that are affluent shouldn't expect to receive a quality product at nothing. You're right on and one of the very few painting contractors that I wouldn't disagree with. I call every one of my customers the following summer to follow up and see how my paint is holding up. I send starbuck cards every christmas. Blow and go and a quality job with a warranty are two different beasts.

nEighter · 05-23-2009, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidNTX

It depends on what you charged and what you are doing. I don't know if what you mean by a cabinet remodel is replacing the cabinets, refinishing them or what or what you charged.

Presentation is a huge part of the sale. It is easy to say I will do x for z dollars but it might require steps a through w to make x happen. It helps if people see exactly what they get for their money.

Saying I will repaint your cabinets or even prime plus 2 coats might not be enough, especially if going from a natural finish. It is important to spell out any extra steps needed to be sure adhesion isn't a problem or the fact that cracks on some natural finished wood doesn't show up until it is painted. This might require extensive caulking that just isn't noticed with an untrained eye. Let them see how much time each step will take also. Give them something they can put their arms around and understand.

This also gives them something to use for comparison and maybe even questions to ask your competition if they get another price.

As far as a price reduction if your price actually reflects your overhead and markup then I don't see how it can be reduced. Insurance, taxes, trucks, the cost of estimating and driving to the Gulf to give estimates...

All of these costs continue. Explain to them that without proper insurance they will be at risk of being sued if someone on the job gets hurt and that is built into your price. Explain these other overhead costs to them so they will understand that when you charge $35.00 an hour that it isn't $10.00 for an employee and $25.00 for your pocket. There is actually a lot of other costs involved. Tell them everything you possibly can about the job.

If you did all of this and they still think you are too high then it sure isn't worth arguing about. I'm sure they won't be satisfied with a half a job and you won't be satisfied with a half a price.

In these days of a tough economy there are more and more people doing less and less work, even people with no experience. People don't have as much money to spend and will look for a better deal. Sometimes it takes us helping them understand what all is involved in a good deal and show them it is us giving them that better deal, even if they have a lower price.

How was your trip to the beach?

I agree on alot of what you say.. but here is my situation. Yes I have been getting SKUNKED on estimates lately. IT SUCKS. I have absolutely no idea how people are doing it, and I hear that crews of hispanics are all that is working right now (no disrespect if you are hispanic... ). I have been churning out the estimates lately.. and it is driving me crazy. Bid a house for $3860.00.. guy had it done for $2700.00.

I went to a house where the guy had gotten a lawsuit settlement for bad siding. Job was ripping the bottom edge of 155lf siding, install flashing and a trim board .. My estimate included replacing all the vert trim around 3/4 of his house where I would need to take them off. I REALLY impressed him with my presentation... and even showed him pics of my work. Man I thought I had it boy..

He picked my brain on it, then I left.. I made sure to explain in detail all of the proceedures I would have to go through to justify my price. RIGHT before I left he told me he has helped his dad rebuild houses.. which clued me in that I just gave him a consultation for free

I turned in the estimate anyway and of course got shot an email immediately saying price was too high to justify me doing the work he was going to do it himself. This from a CEO of a medical company. I tell you what. I am just wondering when it is going to end.

Then another house I went to look at just tonight.. guy says he is budget minded.. wants a full paint on his house but has wood rot issue. I get there and there is over 60% of his trim blown out. Bay window trim all toast.. siding under second story window sunk and cracked.. nice lil trim piece above window had actually fallen off his house

He wants all this done, but says he is trying to find the right company.. has had multiple multiple estimates and has been taking estimates for over a year! LOL says they are all too expensive.. so his house sits, and is falling apart.

Best part.. he wanted to "change" the appearance of the house, taking a half moon trim piece above his window out and residing it. I just looked at him like "you have GOT to be joking me!" I tried to talk him out of wanting it by suggesting painting it different.. and telling him all the work was involved.

I just shook my head silently. And afterward knew I would be bidding $10,000 for this job.. cause there is no way in hell I want to work for him. I think EVERYONE else has felt the same way.

Times they are a tough.

Mr. Mike · 05-23-2009, 11:50 AM

When I leave a estimate that I did not sign I will know why I did not sign them up, you all seem to think the reason you lost the jobs is because your price is much higher than what others are doing this for. I bet even when the economy was in great shape and we were charging what ever we wanted there was still threads started about this low bidder stuff.

Riddle me this, is it possible going off of the last post of $3860..00 that choose a company for just $2700.00 an $1160.00 difference. Is it possible that they were using a much cheaper paint, and doing less work like no trim or ceilings...

Quote:

Then another house I went to look at just tonight.. guy says he is budget minded.. wants a full paint on his house but has wood rot issue. I get there and there is over 60% of his trim blown out. Bay window trim all toast.. siding under second story window sunk and cracked.. nice lil trim piece above window had actually fallen off his house

He wants all this done, but says he is trying to find the right company.. has had multiple multiple estimates and has been taking estimates for over a year! LOL says they are all too expensive.. so his house sits, and is falling apart.

Best part.. he wanted to "change" the appearance of the house, taking a half moon trim piece above his window out and residing it. I just looked at him like "you have GOT to be joking me!" I tried to talk him out of wanting it by suggesting painting it different.. and telling him all the work was involved.

If someone says that to me, my first goal is to find out his budget number, I will ask this very bold in a way that he will think he has no choice but to answer "Sir I have to ask you something very serious, since I am an engineer at giving painting estimates I could do an estimate 30 different ways. I need to know what amount of money you are budgeting for this project so I can provide a scope of work that will be with in that amount?" "What is that number sir?"

I am very good with getting peoples want to spend number, I worked hard on this and used many different methods the one I just shared is my most powerful way of asking with the ask again right afterwords so they know I need that number.

Also if you meet the budget and can't sign them up then he is telling a fish story...

If this helps click the thanks...lol

Mr. Mike · 05-23-2009, 03:08 PM

Let me add:

If you have not heard I love to close jobs!

A couple things that could convert those estimates listed to contracts:

You bid the job for $2850.00 and they want to spend $2000.00 and do some of the work their self. You sold the farm there, I could of took that info and went back out there and signed them up for the $2k and dropped over 1k worth of work I had planned on doing. That would be working with a budget and still making more profit then you were going to dollar for dollar.
Get a budget number of what people want to spend and create a scope of work that will fit that budget best, I close $10,000 jobs at 25% over budget and highest estimates all the time, it is not just getting the budget that makes this possible that is one of the tools that is needed though for the jobs you guys are listing.

4thGeneration · 05-23-2009, 08:06 PM

Tell him to have at it. Also , ask this. If he agrees to lower the % he takes on the next 5 houses by half then you will consider it. Explain that one good turn deserves another. What he wan ts you to do is not a turn, but a bend over....

also, explain that when the other cheap guys gets half way into the project to realize that he is actually going to come out of pocket to complete the job that you will be more than happy to come in and give a larger price to fix the messups and then do it all from scratch.

He is lucky he got your price. My price would have given him a cardiac arrest.

DavidNTX · 05-24-2009, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Mike

If someone says that to me, my first goal is to find out his budget number, I will ask this very bold in a way that he will think he has no choice but to answer "Sir I have to ask you something very serious, since I am an engineer at giving painting estimates I could do an estimate 30 different ways. I need to know what amount of money you are budgeting for this project so I can provide a scope of work that will be with in that amount?" "What is that number sir?"

Mike, today I happened to remember something from when I used to repaint homes. Repainting homes holds probably the fondest of memories for me business-wise. It is something in the back of my mind as someday doing again. If I ever were to get back into paint contracting again, residential repaints is what I would want to do.

I too used to have a couple of lines that I would use with a homeowner to help close the deal. If they asked for my terms I would say I don't want a dime until you are 100% satisfied. That always worked good, especially if the owner had been through a bad experience in the past with any trade. Many of them have. I'm not sure how that line would work in today's market. I know it would never work on larger jobs or jobs that involve a general contractor between the painter and the owner. It used to work good "back in the day". The deal is that on those jobs I was never paid until the owner was happy anyway. The fact that I said it seemed to do something.

Another good thing that owners used to like to hear is this. I will guarantee 100% coverage. That sounds so much better than 1 coat, especially if repainting walls and ceilings in a home. Those generally go back the same color or a soft tone color and 1 coat will generally work. I will price it for the number of coats required and guarantee 100% coverage. That can't be done with some deep accent colors that never do seem to get 100% coverage or some real dry substrates that suck the paint into it as fast as you can put it on. That line could be used on most jobs back then. The fact again is that the owner would never want to pay me if whatever was painted didn't look right and I would never ask to be paid for something that looked unfinished. It just got all of the facts out on the table and of course all of this was included in any contract or scope of work submitted.

Have you ever given that line about being an "engineer of giving paint estimates" to an actual engineer? I wonder what that potential customer that went to school for years to be able to call himself an engineer would think of someone else using that hard earned name as a sales ploy. Don't let the engineering society catch you doing that. I don't know of any laws that breaks but they will tell you in no uncertain terms not to use the word engineer publicly in anything you do. That is an earned title like dr. or phd.

I guess we each have our own lines and approach to winniing a bid.

Maybe I used to talk my own BS and didn't realize it.

nEighter · 05-24-2009, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Mike

When I leave a estimate that I did not sign I will know why I did not sign them up, you all seem to think the reason you lost the jobs is because your price is much higher than what others are doing this for. I bet even when the economy was in great shape and we were charging what ever we wanted there was still threads started about this low bidder stuff.

Riddle me this, is it possible going off of the last post of $3860..00 that choose a company for just $2700.00 an $1160.00 difference. Is it possible that they were using a much cheaper paint, and doing less work like no trim or ceilings...

If someone says that to me, my first goal is to find out his budget number, I will ask this very bold in a way that he will think he has no choice but to answer "Sir I have to ask you something very serious, since I am an engineer at giving painting estimates I could do an estimate 30 different ways. I need to know what amount of money you are budgeting for this project so I can provide a scope of work that will be with in that amount?" "What is that number sir?"

I am very good with getting peoples want to spend number, I worked hard on this and used many different methods the one I just shared is my most powerful way of asking with the ask again right afterwords so they know I need that number.

Also if you meet the budget and can't sign them up then he is telling a fish story...

If this helps click the thanks...lol

that is just the thing mike.. I did. He didn't give me an answer. I spoke with him for over an hour.. by speaking to him and asking him all sorts of questions I came to realize that there is no way I will work for him.

Mr. Mike · 05-24-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Have you ever given that line about being an "engineer of giving paint estimates" to an actual engineer? I wonder what that potential customer that went to school for years to be able to call himself an engineer would think of someone else using that hard earned name as a sales ploy. Don't let the engineering society catch you doing that. I don't know of any laws that breaks but they will tell you in no uncertain terms not to use the word engineer publicly in anything you do. That is an earned title like dr. or phd.

We'll the fact is about that, Phil Rea told me to tell them that and if he says I can do say that then it is perfectly fine.

Really we are all engineers at giving bids right? We can do a single paint bid at least 30 different ways exactly how a engineer is trained to look at all the angles we can also.

To get back on Phil Rea that is the only training I ever had along with a few professional salesman mentors that I talk to on a daily or weekly basis. Phil is a proven professional unlike me still trying to get better, if anything he tells you is wrong I'm sure the lawsuit would be on.

Mr. Mike · 05-24-2009, 02:07 PM

Quote:

that is just the thing mike.. I did. He didn't give me an answer. I spoke with him for over an hour.. by speaking to him and asking him all sorts of questions I came to realize that there is no way I will work for him.

Yes at some point you have to walk away, we have to some what choose our customers the same way they choose us. I will tell some folks, look if you can't share that information with me I would have to assume that you don't trust me in some sort of way, is that a fair assumption Mr. Friend... And probably if I go there they have to say yes or no about trust and if they say yes then I just go back in to the money question and if they said no I will chalk it up to not even a lead.

If you want to keep trying to get the budget number it helps to explain why you need it, because with out it you could be playing to much mind reader and pricing them for a paint job you think they might want. If they are wanting to spend 2k and you work up a price for 5k 7 estimates later they tell a guy they hope to spend 2k and he prices less work for the amount they want to spend and they hire him that is pooh, lets save them time and sign them up today.

vandyandsons · 05-25-2009, 09:30 AM

i learned this recently:

Look at the job, have a ballpark price in your mind, look the customer in the eye and ask

"what were you looking to spend on this?"

it is a great tactic...thank you Mr. Mike

Wolfgang · 05-25-2009, 10:14 AM

As part of my qualifying I always ask what the HO had for a ballpark budget. I always ask "ballpark" because if you ask them for a firm figure they're gonna come in at their lowest. A ballpark figure will usually include a range. If they are ridiculously low, I'll take a few minutes to explain the facts of life to them and take it from there. Saves me from wasting alot of time and if we do part it is usually on good terms. Usually I dont have to use this tactic much as almost all of my business is referral based.

Mr. Mike · 05-25-2009, 02:36 PM

Quote:

i learned this recently:

Look at the job, have a ballpark price in your mind, look the customer in the eye and ask

"what were you looking to spend on this?"

it is a great tactic...thank you Mr. Mike

Thank you for sharing your find,

RCPainting · 05-25-2009, 02:45 PM

Took hubby on an estimate yesterday, he says to HO, "You want a crappy job or a good job?"

Mr. Mike · 05-25-2009, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Took hubby on an estimate yesterday, he says to HO, "You want a crappy job or a good job?"

Please share more, how did the estimate end?