Email Complaint from customer + Painters Email Back - Page 6 - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Crock · 05-29-2009, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Mike

Very good disagreement it is just very broad,

Hope we can discuss this.

Why do you say you love bidding against a fancy lad?
Do you close a big % of those type of bids?
What do you wear and drive to an estimate?
How many painters or staff do you employ on average?
Roughly on average do you do many jobs per year?
Do you advertise?

If you tell me anything about these I will understand better, I think it may be that you could feel better not being a fancy lad and everything seems to be riding itself out, I try not to be fancy it just keeps getting bigger.

If we all choose the customers the same way they choose us then we do need to determine who we want to work for not to kick any one or two person painters because we do need you also for our trade and it is not a bad living to paint by yourself for your self...but I can easily discourage a person from using anyone but my company if my price is in line with others I think most people in any state would hire me with the experience and confidence I have to go with it. In short it is just that you are painting your whole area of prospects with one broad paint brush.

I'll have to nutshell it right now due to obligations on time.

I am 25 year self employed very small GC-residential market with 500-1mil annuall sales.

Have closet full of custom bold company logo dress shirts/slacks.

Used to think like Rory (rbsremodeling), dress to impress. (and I did for a while)

Found that "good ole boy" approach works better here.

Rory is on the coast where the movers and shakers want to use the sexy company and let their friends be green with envy for getting them.

Some homeowners here in the midwest will hire the fancy salesmen with the big remod company and have no prob paying the inflated prices for receptionists and project managers and salesmen and showrroms and wharehouses and trucks and equipment and vice presidents etc. Most want a salesmen that pounds the nails and climbs the ladder and owns the company. It's a less expensive and warm and fuzzy feeling. I will expand later since th O/P didn't mind me hijacking and ask for this response.

I close more % but the fancy guy has an army that advertises much more thereby getting more leads, but I also undercut him. That should not go without saying. His comp O/H is 1000x more and he can't lower price.q

Rory's approach is solid and insightful, but to get to that level takes a 2nd or third generation. In other words, Rory's son may grow to that level but reaching it in 30 years is tough. The big resi remod comp here were started in the 50's and 60's.

Mr. Mike · 05-29-2009, 03:00 PM

Quote:

I close more % but the fancy guy has an army that advertises much more thereby getting more leads, but I also undercut him. That should not go without saying. His comp O/H is 1000x more and he can't lower price.q

Actually his WC is probably cheaper than yours, and the overhead is cheaper over all and even with all the advertising, it is possible that they do charge more than you only because they can. I think if the good ole boy approach works well that should be a reason enough for you to charge more than those who use the lad approach and you say it works better but you charge less.

Mr. Mike · 05-29-2009, 03:07 PM

Quote:

I will expand later since th O/P didn't mind me hijacking and ask for this response.

Please hijack any thread I start, I start them for one reason and it helps 55 angles everytime...

Crock · 05-29-2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Mike

Actually his WC is probably cheaper than yours, and the overhead is cheaper over all and even with all the advertising, it is possible that they do charge more than you only because they can. I think if the good ole boy approach works well that should be a reason enough for you to charge more than those who use the lad approach and you say it works better but you charge less.

Oh no! trust me. It's David and Goliath. I operate in the unknown zone. This is the area in between big and small. The small guy generates 100k.
The big guy in my market prolly 4-5 mill. I am the little big guy. This is the toughest because you have to project big and keep cost small. I don't reccomend it for anyone.

Crock · 05-29-2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Mike

Actually his WC is probably cheaper than yours, and the overhead is cheaper over all and even with all the advertising, it is possible that they do charge more than you only because they can. I think if the good ole boy approach works well that should be a reason enough for you to charge more than those who use the lad approach and you say it works better but you charge less.

No I mean the COMPANY overhead.

Mr. Mike · 05-29-2009, 08:03 PM

Company overhead can be very low with a large company though.

capital city · 05-30-2009, 06:59 AM

Im not sure why everyone bashes Mr. Mike. He says he's a good salesman and he closes on 90% of his jobs but we dont know how he does it. Is he just a pushy son of a gun or does he make the HO feel like he is the only one that can do the job correctly? If he makes them feel like he is the only choice to make without being pushy then kudos to him as that is his job when he walks in the door. I dont use this appoach but it is obviously the only way to go if your trying to keep a big crew going.

My concern would be if he makes good on all those promises. We had a painter like that in Frankfort and now in Lexington. They went by Kentucky Painting (mike you may know them) and switched the name to Hamburg Painting after everyone figured out they sucked. They dont scrape anything and they quote for Duration and use A-100 once the HO turns there back. They now use Weather Clad instead of Duration and every house peels within a couple of years. It really pisses me off when someone goes in, promises the world and then delivers like this. Then they pay me to go over it in 2 years. Carl tells them its the previous paint that failed not his but if your scraping everything that is loose and then using Duration then its not coming off in 2 years no matter what.

I am a 2 man crew (myself and wife) and yes I am happy with this. I dont know if I could handle the headache with a crew of painters. I hired one 2 weeks ago and he was considered by everyone I talked to to be a good painter. 1. He was scared to go up a 32. 2. After I went up after him I could tell he didnt scrape anything as I could peel off chunks with my fingernail after he had painted over it. 3 He missed everything on purpose that he thought you couldnt see from the ground.4 He skipped out on Friday at 1 saying he doesnt work long on Fridays cause he has **** to do, when we needed to get the job done. I would like to have maybe 2 guys but how do you keep up the quality?

Mr. Mike · 05-30-2009, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Im not sure why everyone bashes Mr. Mike

I know why, because I put myself out right in front and say look at me in the Mr. Mike mobile. Most folks that do that are trying to over step everyone. I am not most folks and would rather get up under you and push us all up. I am certainly not the best sales person, Painter, poster, story teller or anything like that, but knowing that I am better than most at doing all of those things gives me the motivation to keep trying to go bigger and better.

Quote:

He says he's a good salesman and he closes on 90% of his jobs but we dont know how he does it. Is he just a pushy son of a gun or does he make the HO feel like he is the only one that can do the job correctly? If he makes them feel like he is the only choice to make without being pushy then kudos to him as that is his job when he walks in the door. I dont use this appoach but it is obviously the only way to go if your trying to keep a big crew going.

I try and share how I do it and will continue to share what I do:

I had 4 appointments today and at my second appointment after signing that contract talked to a neighbor and went in to look at his house then I set up a date to run the estimate.

Here's more:

My 4th one canceled for today and want's me to come out Tuesday. My first one was at a condo and the lady wanted to get another price so to keep good on my %%%(Ha ha) I did not give her a price but I did measure and will put together a bid for when she gets back from Greece... My second appointment was for a Realtor guy I have done a lot of painting for every time I have gave him a price he has said add about ten % to that and lets do the job. The first time he said that to me 5 years ago and about 30 jobs ago I said do you want me to give you some money or what? He said no by all means keep it I just want to make sure we get a great job. So now every time he calls I am signing, today I went to his personal house and we bull5hitted around about my master closing skills and to put the icing on the cake he loved how I did his neighbor today.

Neighbor:

After signing up my 2nd and on my way to the car I seen a guy going to the mail box and I said, Good Morning (9:25) (Next appointment is at 10:00) The guy said good morning very excited, I said do you need any painting done I just signed your neighbor up and he said yes I do. I went over handed him a card and we go inside and look at his house, 15 minutes after talking to him I let him know I had a 10 am'er and will need to set a time to meet with him. We are sitting in the kitchen and on his counter lays 4 cards for painter and he laid mine on top. I noticed that so I said now sir you have been thinking about this for a while, let me tell you what I will do for you. I go when I come out I will provide you with at least 3 ways of doing this project and you will get 3 prices from me, I make it so easy that you only have to decide exactly what option fits you budget or needs to make it easy on you. I swear on everything I love he said "If you work for my neighbor then I would be a fool to talk to anyone else" I said I will certainly be able to take care of your needs.

3rd and last appointment for the day:

Went in sat down, opened my photos and did my song and dance before going out to measure the house. When I went back inside and had my estimate in hand I asked them about how much they were hoping to be budgeting for this project and they said around 4,000 give or take 500 or so. I go over the bid I had worked up and have taken the window sashes out and gave them a price for $3944.88 then added the deck on to make it $4483.88. I asked them to sign in my way about doing that and they said no, I made sure to get about 7 more No's from them atleast before I could leave and at the end they promise to call me, and I bet they will but the price is exactly $5000.00 when they do and they understand that they just said they needed to get more estimates. I will take a notch down on my closing % for this bid but if they call back then I will add it back on to my over all, I have been over 70% on the one call close and over 80% on my overall closing ratio.

Quote:

He says he's a good salesman and he closes on 90% of his jobs but we dont know how he does it.

I would be more than happy to take a decent looking person along for the ride anytime, I was thinking today about how long it has been since I took someone along for the ride. I have a great time on appointments knowing my goal is to sign the contract if I cant then I make sure to have fun and say off the wall things to practice. I get my best practice on people that don't buy.

Quote:

I would like to have maybe 2 guys but how do you keep up the quality?

Great question, send me your email address and I will start sending you painter resumes from your area. From there you can get some good info to choose who you want to bring in and try out. I also make every new guy read this employee guide hand book I got from Pro Wall I think and edited before that I used another. Now you have to have a system down to work crews I mean like how you do walls and when and so on. Once you have the system down you should be able to have one person who knows it and others that will listen to them. I unlike most painters used to write down everyone's info that called for a job and put them in a list called "painter list" now I refuse to take anyone's info over the phone and direct them to my website, from there I am able to provide their info to any other paint contractor.

I might of missed a question there somewhere, but ask me anything about anything, If I don't know I will say I don't know.

monkey · 06-09-2009, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Z

Not to come to anyone's defense here,
but can you guys get off the mob lynching and offer something positive here?
Is it just me or are there couple of people here just attacking Mike here
and nothing else? I mean nothing else, just shadow posting.
Start your own threads or just thank Mike here for keeping things interesting.
The guys has balls, does anybody else?
Not agreeing with many of his methods but
he lays it all on the table for everyone to see.
So, everyone else get your "φαλλός" out and start comparing or just stop it.

Goerge, I hope you and Mike noticed that while I may have thrown a few little jabs at Mike I didn't do it from hiding(shadow posting-whatever that means). I read this thread and it inspired me to dig through a closet for some old pictures and take pics of pics(scanner not hooked up) that are comparing and do apply to this thread.I even included a pic of that big goon all dusted up(would have been after a hose wash) after a day doing that work.No hiding here.
At the time the discussion was about prep and if the painter was responsible if peeling paint had old paint on the back.
This thread made me realize that I am ,in fact, an expert at something- high prep exterior re-paints. I would be surprised if a paint rep has seen a house after 5-8-10-12 years in the field. The best teacher is looking at your work as it ages when going back for inside work. With that said whats in the paint can is not the same with new formulas and whatnot.

Of course I don't strip paint with solid adhesion.
I don't/can't even do that kind of work anymore.
My contracts used to say something like "remove all loose and failing paint to achieve a sound substrate"
Kind of leaves it up to my discretion.
I put up pics of 3 different houses with different levels of prep to show that.
I have seen some houses so bad that there is nothing to paint! sound wood but beyond "scraping".
I have no idea what you would do with them
From some of the responses it seems like a scrape loose stuff is the "industry standard"
Maybe what I do is "industry best practices" < sounds like a term I've heard before. Not bragging and I never made a lot of money.I am proud of my work.
You said "Have'nt you seen my portfolio"
What does that show?
A color change will always look dramatic.
Could be my eyes or monitor, But what I see is the base of a column that needs about 10 more minutes with a carbide scraper and sandpaper.
I look forward to your input Mike or anyone.It is an interesting thread even if it is all over the place!
Mike have you ever started a thread that didn't go at least 7 pages?

monkey · 06-09-2009, 02:36 PM

I might of missed a question there somewhere, but ask me anything about anything, If I don't know I will say I don't know

Anything about anything?
Okay
3 ?'s

1- You blame your painters for the problem that started this thread and then say you might have up to 22 more employees for the summer.
Do your main painters supervise the new summer help?
1a- Do you have company vehicles for all this new help?...
I'm just curious.. has nothing to do with me.. I'm a 1 man shop now.

2- From your big salesman experience....
I'm the worst salesman on this site.. maybe the world.... I've actually said that to a customer!
? is how do you like this line
Me " I think I have everything I need.. I'll get something to you in the mail in a couple of days"
Customer " Okay thanks, We are going to get a few more bids"
Me " Okay" now get this! ... with a bit of a smile.. "Well you're not going to hurt my feelings if you hire someone else..have a nice day"
got the job

3- How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?

Mr. Mike · 06-09-2009, 03:21 PM

Quote:

George, I hope you and Mike noticed that while I may have thrown a few little jabs at Mike I didn't do it from hiding(shadow posting-whatever that means).

Your good, I have a couple folks that miss me from other forums and they try and troll up my posts.

Quote:

You said "Have'nt you seen my portfolio"
What does that show?
A color change will always look dramatic.
Could be my eyes or monitor, But what I see is the base of a column that needs about 10 more minutes with a carbide scraper and sandpaper.
I look forward to your input Mike or anyone.It is an interesting thread even if it is all over the place!

Thanks for asking about the columns and also for inputting in this great thread.

That is a before and after of a removal of loose and popping paint along with the duration process to the finish.

We offer stripping also and this is a great example I feel to have on my website because there is no misrepresentation that people will have a brand new column.

Quote:

Mike have you ever started a thread that didn't go at least 7 pages?

Oh yes all the time, lol

Quote:

I might of missed a question there somewhere, but ask me anything about anything, If I don't know I will say I don't know

Anything about anything?
Okay
3 ?'s

1- You blame your painters for the problem that started this thread and then say you might have up to 22 more employees for the summer.
Do your main painters supervise the new summer help?
1a- Do you have company vehicles for all this new help?...
I'm just curious.. has nothing to do with me.. I'm a 1 man shop now.

2- From your big salesman experience....
I'm the worst salesman on this site.. maybe the world.... I've actually said that to a customer!
? is how do you like this line
Me " I think I have everything I need.. I'll get something to you in the mail in a couple of days"
Customer " Okay thanks, We are going to get a few more bids"
Me " Okay" now get this! ... with a bit of a smile.. "Well you're not going to hurt my feelings if you hire someone else..have a nice day"
got the job

3- How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?

1. If I blame my painters... I know you were saying if it is my painters fault it is my fault as the company and I understand your point. However understanding that I am then able to know what and were something went wrong. My guys were suppose to hang around and make sure everything covered before leaving and at the end of the day if they are not done they are suppose to go back and finish the next day, they left and the homeowner after walking them around the first time noticed the paint was streaky in some areas and questioned everything.

1a. I have 5 company vehicles and tons of magnets. If I am on a big job I get trailers or even pods and stay posted up and rent golf carts until the job is complete.

2 Q. Me " I think I have everything I need.. I'll get something to you in the mail in a couple of days"
Customer " Okay thanks, We are going to get a few more bids"
Me " Okay" now get this! ... with a bit of a smile.. "Well you're not going to hurt my feelings if you hire someone else..have a nice day"
got the job

2A. Change verbiage to "I have everything I need..I'll get you a written quote together on (describe the rooms or whatever at this time) and say was there anything else that I might have left out? do what ever you do monkey.

For the okay get this: I hate it and let me explain why this is so bad, I may have overcome the objection to get more bids with out it ever coming up just by giving them a price today and following through with a close. Heck I would tweak that up for you were you could act like you will need a few days and be on your way out the door to back in the chair and signing a contract, I wont right now in case you would not like that kind of input if you do post up a topic or ask me to and we will give one heck of a one call close that even you would like.

3. Not many I just bite right on in.

monkey · 06-09-2009, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Mike

Your good, I have a couple folks that miss me from other forums and they try and troll up my posts.

Thanks for asking about the columns and also for inputting in this great thread.

That is a before and after of a removal of loose and popping paint along with the duration process to the finish.

We offer stripping also and this is a great example I feel to have on my website because there is no misrepresentation that people will have a brand new column.

Oh yes all the time, lol

1. If I blame my painters... I know you were saying if it is my painters fault it is my fault as the company and I understand your point. However understanding that I am then able to know what and were something went wrong. My guys were suppose to hang around and make sure everything covered before leaving and at the end of the day if they are not done they are suppose to go back and finish the next day, they left and the homeowner after walking them around the first time noticed the paint was streaky in some areas and questioned everything.

1a. I have 5 company vehicles and tons of magnets. If I am on a big job I get trailers or even pods and stay posted up and rent golf carts until the job is complete.

2 Q. Me " I think I have everything I need.. I'll get something to you in the mail in a couple of days"
Customer " Okay thanks, We are going to get a few more bids"
Me " Okay" now get this! ... with a bit of a smile.. "Well you're not going to hurt my feelings if you hire someone else..have a nice day"
got the job

2A. Change verbiage to "I have everything I need..I'll get you a written quote together on (describe the rooms or whatever at this time) and say was there anything else that I might have left out? do what ever you do monkey.

For the okay get this: I hate it and let me explain why this is so bad, I may have overcome the objection to get more bids with out it ever coming up just by giving them a price today and following through with a close. Heck I would tweak that up for you were you could act like you will need a few days and be on your way out the door to back in the chair and signing a contract, I wont right now in case you would not like that kind of input if you do post up a topic or ask me to and we will give one heck of a one call close that even you would like.

3. Not many I just bite right on in.

My DSL is acting up today so real quick the sales part was something I thought you might get a kick out of "not hurt my feelings" was ridiculous and just came out of my mouth. I guess it could show a strange confidence in the way of "you need me more than I need you"
I'm 42 and come across like a big shy awkward kid with some grey hair!
My references sell the job for me most times although this was someone new to the area so the reference was not that strong.

Mr. Mike · 06-09-2009, 07:10 PM

Quote:

My DSL is acting up today so real quick the sales part was something I thought you might get a kick out of "not hurt my feelings" was ridiculous and just came out of my mouth. I guess it could show a strange confidence in the way of "you need me more than I need you"
I'm 42 and come across like a big shy awkward kid with some grey hair!
My references sell the job for me most times although this was someone new to the area so the reference was not that strong.

We are on the same page.