Email Complaint from customer + Painters Email Back - Page 3 - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Mr. Mike · 05-19-2009, 03:35 PM

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I would never use paint to fill in cracks and holes and I would never use 10 mil paint on a repaint of a house, especially a house with a paint buildup problem and if I did scrape and sand a surface down to where some raw wood was showing, it would be properly primed, allowed to dry and then painted.

All my bids state to remove loose popping and peeling paint also. I use Aura exterior and it goes on 10 mils thick.

Mr. Mike · 05-19-2009, 03:44 PM

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With your guarantee if paint falls from the house in the first week, as long as it has some old loose and peeling paint on the back of your paint, your guarantee will not fix the work.

I fix it all on my come back warranty. I explain before signing a customer up that the old paint could still pop later and that maintenance is everything. Even though I sale a lifetime paint it is going to have to be maintained.

premierpainter · 05-19-2009, 04:21 PM

10 mil paint is a good thing. That is wet it dries down to 4 mils.
Quoting the PDCA is not too impressive in this case. They have to keep up with current coatings.

DavidNTX · 05-19-2009, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premierpainter

10 mil paint is a good thing. That is wet it dries down to 4 mils.
Quoting the PDCA is not too impressive in this case. They have to keep up with current coatings.

I am not a member of PDCA but know a lot about them. I think they have a couple of thousand members and have been around about a hundred years. I know for a fact they have been around at least 50 and I think awhile back they had a 90 year deal or something.

The PDCA has set the standards in many cases. Between them and the SSPCA (Steel Structures Painting Council) they have pretty much set all of the standards in the AIA documents. Even the method of inspecting a paintjob was brought to being by the PDCA.

Maybe they aren't as up to date as the suppliers who make the paint but they aren't far behind, if any at all. Many of their members are the suppliers.

That entire quote from the PDCA was about professionalism and preparing a surface correctly, not about the coating used. Whether you use a 2 mil(dft) paint or a 10 mil (dft) paint you still can't skip the preparation. While maintenance might be important, preparation is the key to a good paint job. Maintenance isn't needed unless there is a failure.

davidanbess · 05-19-2009, 07:21 PM

jeeeeezuss !! all these negative comments against someone who gives out expert advice to anyone asking, to me he is only showing us that he is a mere mortal like the rest of us

Regards David

Tinstaafl · 05-19-2009, 07:27 PM

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Originally Posted by davidanbess

jeeeeezuss !! all these negative comments against someone who gives out expert advice to anyone asking,

Well, he gives out advice. Some of it's good.

Dorman Painting · 05-19-2009, 07:29 PM

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Originally Posted by DavidNTX

I believe what I said was a 20-30 year old house and 10 coats is not out of the realm of possibillities, especially if every time it is painted gets a coat of primer and 2 coats of paint. If the paint is thick enough to have surface cracks there are at least that many coats of paint on this house. A paint buildup problem is one of the leading causes of coating failure on older homes. Cracked glazing and the fact this house even uses glazing is another indicator that this is an older house.

I would never place a guarantee that it will NEVER peel, pop or fade if the job isn't prepared right. The paint companies guarantees are only if the surface is prepared correctly.

All I am saying is this, don't blame the customer if the paintjob fails. We don't know the particulars about how the job was bid or if enough money to do the job correctly was charged or not.

If you knowingly give a customer a bad job because they didn't pay enough then why complain about the customer causing the bad job. Tell the customer up front that it will not be prepared correctly and see what happens.

Did you know there are some people that refuse to do a job unless they are able to do it correctly?

They are called professionals.

It would be real interesting if this contractor told the homeowner that she wasn't paying enough for a quality paintjob therefore would get a second rate paintjob. I somehow have a feeling if he had said that this problem wouldn't be occurring now.

What we know is that he offered to do the job for a certain amount, the owner agreed and now is unhappy with the work. The contractor went back to the job and saw for himself that it was below par, even for him. In fact is having to repaint 18 frames and fill in some cracks and holes with paint.

This is not the customers fault and you can't blame the customer for your own shortcomings. The contractor never said a single word about not getting the money to do the job correctly but did say plenty to help us understand that the job was not performed correctly.

I bet you won't find another handfull of painters on this site that will endorse knowingly giving a customer a bad paintjob. I'm surprised there are 2 of you that are at least willing to admit it.

It would be real interesting to hear what others say about knowingly giving a customer a bad job. Anyone who does this should expect complaints like this guy got.

I have to address your accusation that I would endorse giving a customer a bad paint job. To toot my own horn a little, I simply can't remember the last time I gave a customer a bad paint job.

You don't stay in business for over ten years and anually do sales in the hundreds of thousands by giving bad paint jobs. I do these numbers with me, my wife and occasionally one helper. I go over all of the work with a fine tooth comb, am I perfect, hell no.

But to the topic at hand, my general strategy of tackling an aging exterior is obviously unique to each house but here goes:pressure wash entire house using water only(don't believe in the chemicals), scrape and sand,(sanding is limited to areas that were scraped), caulk where appropriate, patch and fill obvious holes, nail holes or other blatant imperfections, either spot prime or normally prime whole house, then shoot with Sherwin Williams Super Paint or Duration.

That's our exterior painting process on the old aging exteriors, the customer should get 7-9 good years out of it. If you tell a customer any more years than that, you're full of B.S. I hope you realize now that I don't do or endorse bad paint jobs, we go by the book...old school, except we don't brush, we spray which actually is better in the long run.

Mr. Mike · 05-19-2009, 11:23 PM

What a great group of painters.

cutnut · 05-23-2009, 03:29 PM

Mr.

The way you post and discuss stuff with members here, and the way you describe your interactions with customers points to one unfortunate, but probly not so secret conclusion. You will say anything to get the job. Asking the customer how much they think the paint job should cost is like the doctor asking the patient what he should do about the high blood pressure.

Your mouth moves way faster than your brain is able to process rational information. One is very fast, the other is not so much. Please, listen to the feedback that the pros here are trying to give you. My cousin says the Louisville market is shrinking, and sounds like you got yourself a house of cards there.

rbsremodeling · 05-23-2009, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cutnut

Mr.

The way you post and discuss stuff with members here, and the way you describe your interactions with customers points to one unfortunate, but probly not so secret conclusion. You will say anything to get the job. Asking the customer how much they think the paint job should cost is like the doctor asking the patient what he should do about the high blood pressure.

Your mouth moves way faster than your brain is able to process rational information. One is very fast, the other is not so much. Please, listen to the feedback that the pros here are trying to give you. My cousin says the Louisville market is shrinking, and sounds like you got yourself a house of cards there.

I disagree. Some of us are good craftsmen. Some are good salesmen. Some of us are both.

If his guys produces the work his mouth sells. Well whoop there it is!

cutnut · 05-23-2009, 03:43 PM

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Originally Posted by rbsremodeling

I disagree. Some of us are good craftsmen. Some are good salesmen. Some of us are both.s!

And some are mediocre at both. Leadership is also important in a boss man. Gotta love a guy whose first impulse is to blame his own painters. Mike needs to learn to take responsbility and realize that it starts with the man at the top. My Granddad used to say "the fish rots from the head down." This one sounds pretty tinky.

Mr. Mike · 05-23-2009, 05:08 PM

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The way you post and discuss stuff with members here, and the way you describe your interactions with customers points to one unfortunate, but probly not so secret conclusion. You will say anything to get the job. Asking the customer how much they think the paint job should cost is like the doctor asking the patient what he should do about the high blood pressure.

The way a doctor will ask have you talked to other doctors and what did they tell you...

Who is this cutnut? Busting on me anytime you post, I am a great salesman all the way up to a great painter and painting contractor. You hide behind your screen name and name call the great Mr. Mike as a mediocre at the game of painting operating and selling where is your stats Mr. or Mrs., you should thank me for even replying to your insults.

Quote:

Your mouth moves way faster than your brain is able to process rational information. One is very fast, the other is not so much. Please, listen to the feedback that the pros here are trying to give you. My cousin says the Louisville market is shrinking, and sounds like you got yourself a house of cards there.

On that note, my brain thinks way faster than your brain, mouth and figures do all together. I am a crazy insane fast thinker and see all the possibilities of every angle there is before I can say it just to let you know. My lady gets asked all the time how do you live with someone that thinks as fast as Mike does. Take that for what you want.

And as any more insults about me cutnut, let's lay this on the table. I have a few people that try and call me out on every forum I am on and it's all good, however not one of these people that do this are in my city. If I was more than 60% full of crap wouldn't all of my Freinds or local painters in my area be in here to pound on my head also? Just a thought how many posters on here do you think I talk to on a weekly or even daily basis? They don't post behind me because they agree with me and know that I am having fun with people trying to call me out. If they all came in here to say what I say to you it would definatly be a dispute instead of a discussion. Cut Nut would you like to buy something from me now? where are you at what do you do?

Your cousin..., I have heard a lot about this cousin and when you mention him or her you always say he has something bad to say about Me or about work in Louisville, sounds like a fun person to talk to... Any who the market is shrinking all over and the better you close the better you eat.

As far as the job goes:

I went and looked at the job and was unhappy with what I seen, the paint was thin it looked like they quickly put up 3 mills of wet paint and I had them put one more coat.

cutnut · 05-23-2009, 05:31 PM

Mr.

I was an art/marketing student in Cinci in the 90s. I worked for the Brumbacks for 6 summers - 4 undergrad and 2 grad. I stay in touch with the bros to this day. Some of my work is still featured on their site. After college I moved to Boseman Montana and started my business that serves the wealthy Hollywood types who are buying up property and building vacation, ski and farmstead type homes. These folks are a trip. They come in from LA with their own GC's who will hire out of state architects who will hire the best in state builders who will hire me to paint. Many of these places, by the time they are done, its time to start again, so I kind of go with the house, like Murphy Brown's painter. This is why I get a kick out of you. This is a people business. You are a very interesting person. Btw, I dont think its just me that finds you so humorous.

DavidNTX · 05-23-2009, 06:16 PM

Mr. Mike · 05-23-2009, 07:17 PM

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I worked for the Brumbacks for 6 summers - 4 undergrad and 2 grad. I stay in touch with the bros to this day. Some of my work is still featured on their site.

Ok so your a new construction house painter, that started painting during the summer for a new construction house painting contractor while going through school to be an art major in Louisville Ky. who moved to Montana to be a painting contractor.

Now that we have this up infront of us, how is the Brumbacks doing today? They won't come up with anything negitive or bad to say about me in here. I painted a 90k job next door to them a few years ago and he liked my truck so much he went right over and had it wrapped by the people I told him to use.

Selling new construction jobs and selling re-paints can be two tottally diferent animals. I will tell you now all new house painters can not paint re-paints, that is like sending a bull for a walk in a china house.

Quote:

Some of my work is still featured on their site.

That's funny though because last I looked they had a few pictures only, and your work being featured on that site sounds kind of stingy considering they are hands on type of contractors and I am sure they would say they were next to you yelling, lol just joking about yelling.

Mr. Mike · 05-23-2009, 07:22 PM

Brumback now is more re-paints now.

cutnut · 05-23-2009, 07:51 PM

Yes, I moved here in '99 and started my business. My first job here was for a prominent former actor who has a ranch here. I was hired to wash and oil all of the fences on the property and to stain the new barn (16k sf) as it was built. From there I got the interior repaint, with all new faux finishes - marbleizing, graining, strie, glazes etc and then hooked on with his builder and branched from there.

I have 8 employees year round. I havent had good luck with the resi repaint guys. The craft of painting is really about knowing how to make a beautiful finish on raw material, a blank canvas. Guys who have only done resi repaints dont truly know the full potential of fine finishing because they have only ever gone over the bad work that came before them. I love creating the original finish and being in charge of keeping it looking nice going forward. Also, I dont offer all the specials and discounts and signing bonuses that you do, which I think is a good thing.

DavidNTX · 05-24-2009, 12:47 AM

Both types of finishes are like an art form. Whether you are starting with a "blank canvas" or repainting over an old one, proper techniques and materials are required for a good quality finish for both. You can't say that one requires more or less skill than the other. Both sides can make good arguments.

As a professional painter one should be ready and able to do what is required, whether it be new construction or a repaint just like a painter should be able to brush, roll or spray as the conditions warrant. Not all painters are spray men but should be able to pickup a spraygun if required. A sprayman should also be able to pickup a brush and roller if required.

Not everything can be brushed and not everything can be sprayed. Even doing new commercial work, repaints do happen and even in a repaint market, new work does happen.

I have a brother in law that went to college and was in the oil business for several years when he started painting houses and anything else he could find to paint. Now his business does about $15 million a year and does nothing but jobs like hotels. Some are new, some are repaints. When his customers ask him to paint their houses you can bet he has the painters able to do that, whether it is a new house or a repaint.

I do understand what might be said about painting new residential but just because it is new residential doesn't mean it is cheap work. Even multi-million dollar homes are new home construction at some point in time and not just anyone can do those. Speaking of new homes, even the cheap ones, have you ever seen those guys paint a new home? It is amazing. Use a washtub to mixup the texture they blow onto to everything. The way they stomp those ceilings. Not just anyone can do that either and the ones that are good at it can make good money at it. A crew of 3 men can finish 2 or 3 houses a week.

I like to think I am a great painter and that there is no one better than me but in reality, there are many many painters better than me. There are many many painters better than you. All of the BS talk can only get you so far. I sure haven't seen anything that has impressed me with it. It almost reminds me of a used car salesman. Professionalism is what sells. It is the "used car salesman" types that make owners give everyone else the "evil eye" the first time they meet.

Everyone here has their own nitch. Some do new homes, some repaints, some commercial and some residential. I'm sure not going to try and find fault with a guy that I don't know just because he is in a little different market than I am. Regardless of the market you can still be a professional. A lack of professionalism is what gets to me. That is what hurts the entire industry.

Mr. Mike · 05-24-2009, 01:46 AM

I don't care what happens I do enjoy reading Davids Posts. Thanks

rbsremodeling · 05-24-2009, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidNTX

Professionalism is what sells. It is the "used car salesman" types that make owners give everyone else the "evil eye" the first time they meet.

Some home owner's are use to that. In the market I am in. Its the well dressed guys, driving nice trucks, that have all been trained by some national sales guru that do well.

I go to the meetings and I am amazed that these guys do so well.

The down to earth regular Joe the contractor do not stand a chance against their marketing hype.

When I first moved to DC/MD I was out classed on salesmanship.

My work was better than a lot of guys and companies, but their image, salesmanship and marketing hype blew me out of the water.

So I learned very early on to offer a hybrid of good salesman ship and a good quality product.

If you want to have anything resembling a life, not be working past 65 and not be the sole person that runs your company and have some freedom to enjoy other things outside your contracting business, you need a few of the slick talking salesman or become your own if you have too.