Education - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Paul Burns · 03-03-2006, 10:47 PM

Where do MOST tradespeople and especially painters get their education?

Where did they learn how to paint and prepare and spec paint types, etc?

Where did/do they learn how to run a business?

I'll start; Danl, Jake, George, and Alan were all small companies that I worked for in the beginning. I also worked for an apartment painter, and watched some big paint companies. I learned at least ONE thing from all of them, but by the time I twenty one, I had figured out how to EVERYTHING better than any of them, with the exception possibly of the big companies.

I was right as far as the production part went, but I fiddled around with the business end for almost 15 years before I earned more money than wages, and had a couple of systems in place fo the business part.

Almost everything I learned about business was through hearing conversations at the bars, talking to some clients here and there and an accountant. But mostly it was trial and error.

Finally, the internet came along and I searched and read and bought everything that was for sale and I could get my hands on that taught about business. I joined every group that was offered, listenned to how they did things and then made EDUCATED decisions as to whether to change to something better or stick with what we already had working. I've been on these B's almost 365 days per year since they first started. Been through several sales courses, business conferences, painter meetings, etc..

But whenver I mention ANYTHING that I have joined, read, belonged to, or whatever, whoever I am talking to, who is usually a paint contractor, doen't know or has never heard of what I am talking about.

It seems to me like MOST paint contractors were taught by one or two bosses, and then whatever they could learn in paint stores.

Am I wrong about that? I'm not talking about the 2% that belong to the PDCA. I am talking about the other 98%. Where so that get educated and do they think they need any more educating or is painting so simple that all it takes is working for onw or two companies and asking questions to the paint store people?

It seems that SOME painters are hungry for education, but they can't stand the thought of having to pay for it with time or money. All of the others seem to already know it all.

How is it? Am I seeing and hearing things the wrong way? I belive in europe they have ot go through a fairly extensive apprentiship, etc., and I doubt that will ever work here again, but doesn't anyone else thnk they we need MORE places of education for our painters? For ourselves? I mean there ar 15 ways to paint a 6 panel door in anoccupied home, but only one or two good ways of doing it. Who learned what where and are they teaching the next in line?

TIA,
Paul

chris n · 03-04-2006, 08:24 AM

Ever heard of spell check?

Paul Burns · 03-04-2006, 08:45 AM

Yes, I have heard of spell check.

Is there something that needs to be explained? Sometimes when I am in a hurry, or it is late at night, I don't bother with spell check. I am really sorry if I offended you! I am not the brightest bulb in the pack, and my typing sucks too! That is onw of the reasons that I paint, or run a company, to be more exaact.

Kudo's

Paul

Paul Burns · 03-04-2006, 09:31 AM

Neil,

I should also say that I am traveling and typing this stuff on a new laptop, in a strange bed, and that post was passed my bedtime. Being tired, in a strange environment, uncomfortable, with a laptop and keyboard that I am not used to, can be quite a challenge, especially for those of us who are challenged!

The question that I meant to ask is simply; Where have all of you received your education for trade and business that you are in?

Thanks,
Paul
p.s. "We received our education in the cities of the nation, me and Paul. Almost busted in Laredo for some reasons that I'd rather not disclose. But if you're staying in a motel there and leave, just don't leave nothin in your clothes! I guess Nashville was the roughest, but I know I've said the same about them all. Well we drank a lot of whiskey, so I don't know if we went on that night at all. I guess Buffalo ain't geared for me and Paul. We received our education, in the cities of the nation ......."

donb1959 · 03-04-2006, 01:52 PM

I recieved my painting education with my Dad, who is a 4th generation painter. I spent almost 13 years as an apprentice under him with his company. I have also painted for several large and small contractors. That's how I became the painter I am today.

As for the business side of things, in my first year of business I've learned a ton, I've made a few mistakes, but there were not noteable, and I learned from them. I have never attended any classes, nor have I taken any courses on business, not sure if that's a plus or a minus.

I think that alot of the folks that are teaching these business classes have very little knowledge of real world ways. And apart from that chances are very good that I net more than they do. IMO good business is 95% common sense, and 2% learned behaviour.

Don't get me wrong, being in business for myself has been much tougher than I had expected, but I didn't have any grandiouse ideas when I started, and I knew I had much to learn, I don't mind asking questions and surronding myself with those that are smarted than I.

Paul Burns · 03-04-2006, 03:06 PM

Don,

The reason I am asking is because someone I know wants to run a paint company. This person has lots of formal education and some real world retail operating with sales, admin, etc.. But he says that he searched the internet high and low for information about residential repainting businesses, and found almost ZERO.

Do you think that EVERYBODY needs to learn the old fahioned way like you and I described? Or can anyone with an MBA become a succesful painting contractor or not?

TIA,
Paul

George Z · 03-04-2006, 06:13 PM

No I don't think you need to be a painter to run a painting business.
Sometimes I think what we know (as Painters) stands in the way
of running the business.
Education is out there.
I can say I got most of it from these boards, Paul's posts and others
A lot from Richard Kaller (sorry if that offends anyone) and Mark Havens
and the internet in general.
Also, NAPP and the peer2peer meetings.
Books, lots of them, courses paid or not, business, marketing, sales etc.
And of course the E-Myth revisited

donb1959 · 03-04-2006, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Burns

Don,

The reason I am asking is because someone I know wants to run a paint company. This person has lots of formal education and some real world retail operating with sales, admin, etc.. But he says that he searched the internet high and low for information about residential repainting businesses, and found almost ZERO.

Do you think that EVERYBODY needs to learn the old fahioned way like you and I described? Or can anyone with an MBA become a succesful painting contractor or not?

TIA,
Paul

Everybody is a broad statement, so I can't say that. But I do believe you have to at least have a fundimental knowledge of the application. For instance, one not knowing anything about the trade goes into business for himself, he may know how to market, promote, hire, and everything involved with the business end, but if he doesn't know production rates, quality standards, estimation practices, then he has to hire someone for all this, and we all know noone treats your business the way you do.

I believe that paint contracting is a differant animal from other trades as there are so many varieables that go into it. I said all that to say this, if someone with an MBA and NO experiance in the trade wishes to be a contractor their either going to have to be very lucky, very smart...or both.

Tscarborough · 03-04-2006, 09:51 PM

Every business has 2 sides. There is the front end, which consists of the actual work and everything involved with scheduling and workmanship. It is almost impossible to learn this aspect from any type of course or school, other than an apprenticeship. The other aspect is often called the "back office" or "back end", and it entails accounts payable, accounts receivable, management information and human resources.

You can be the best in the business on the front end and go bankrupt quickly on the back end. Luckily, the back office stuff is easy to learn and applies across trades. Also, since it is not trade specific, you can hire someone to do it for you who has little or no training in your specific trade, although you can't go wrong studying how the back office works.

**slickshift** · 03-04-2006, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Burns

Where do MOST tradespeople and especially painters get their education?

Where did they learn how to paint and prepare and spec paint types, etc?

I can't answer for most
I learned working for a great painting forman/crew chief
(That's not what we called him, but it probably describes him pretty well)
I'd absolutey say he was my mentor
The tech stuff and also how to bid, we'd make a game of it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Burns

Where did/do they learn how to run a business?

I can't answer for most
Again for me it was in the field, working for, and managing small businesses for others
That has taken me longer to learn by far
And I still am a much better technician than entrepreneur

paintr56 · 03-05-2006, 03:14 AM

Good questions Paul.

I whole heartedly agree with George about the internet, and about the people he named. Paul I have learned a lot from your posts and if I am ever forced to hire employees again I will definatly be trying piece work. Mark Havens is very knowledgable and willing to share, but Richard Kaller has done more for my bottom line then anyone else. I would credit him with adding thirty dollars an hour to my price. I feel some what bad to say I have never spent a penny with him, mostly because his program is geared to companies looking for growth. I am very happy as a one man shop and try to increase my rates mostly to shorten my hours. There have been many others online that have helped, some with excelent advice some showing thier mistakes so others didn't have to make them to learn

Jim Bunton

AAPaint · 03-05-2006, 01:43 PM

I learned by watching, asking thousands of questions (I'm worse than curious George), and reading. It took me a minute to realize painting was my passion, my calling, so to speak, but I love it. Due to my love for what I do, I spend almost all my free time trying to find ways to improve. Even today I will spend hours and hours online reading about painting and contracting in general. The internet has become the most helpful tool I could imagine for my business though. I sit back and learn by watching you guys, lol!!

My thing is, I understand my trade very well, and I have a great product knowledge. I can usually tell you what the side of a can of anything says and probably know something about the technology that makes the paint work the way they say.....but the business end. I have found it very hard to get other painters to share their knowledge. I ran into one old fella in the paint store one day that was eager to teach me a thing or two, but for the most part I find that painters in this area are a very jealous type. They don't want to see anyone do better and getting advice isn't easy.

So, I come here to learn about how to handle a painting/contracting business along with ten other forums and hundreds of other sites. The internet is my tool right now. Thank heavens for that resource!

Projectman · 03-05-2006, 03:30 PM

Dad owned a paint manufacturing company... got all my paint free... his customers mostly local contractors always offered me opportunities... But actually I joined the painters union where I was taught how to use and apply the products... estimating and my own thing came later on as confidence grew. Ultimately I went into protective coatings... nuclear level. Now I run the largest Controls / Refrigeration company in Southern Florida... I needed a change... LOL... but thinking of returning to the simple life... Painting.

Richard Kaller · 03-05-2006, 04:45 PM

Paul,

In my opinion you are a unique individual for the painting industry because you are seeking continuous improvement.

To find out who really knows the painting business just follow the money. For most people the purpose of any business is to be profitable. Being profitable is beyond making a good wage. It takes business skills.

The painting industry has been woefully inadequate providing training to painting contractors. This seems unique to the painting industry because in other trades the manufacturers invest heavily in training business to contractor. It was the building material manufacturers that funded my “Contractor Development Seminars” that created my consulting career outside being a contractor.

Because of the high turnover and the behavior of a lot of painters the manufacturers I have spoken with don’t think business training for painters will provide a return on investment. Apparently investing the money in another store will produce a higher return.

Therefore for those that want to build serious business with office, sales and field staff the individual will need to look outside the painting industry. The ones that make an amazing amount of money from a very little investment.

I am also seeing the painters that include handyman services or make handyman services the primary revenue generator have constant cash flow and profits that exceed most painters that focus on the technical side of painting. There is much less down time and hey can sell their labor at a higher rate.

Fortunately we have the Internet and by searching can find where to get proven contractor training for handyman services or business building skills.

Best of Luck,

Richard

PS: I don't mean to slight Mark Havens who is in the painting industry but has a different background. The good things you hear aboout NAPP are true. It seems very foolish to me that a painter that wants to improve to not be a member of NAPP or some other networking group.

Paul Burns · 03-05-2006, 05:24 PM

Richard, It;s good to see/read you. I hope all is well for you.

Did you bring up Mark because NAPP is one of the few orgs around that actually focus on the residential paint contractor? IF so, why not mention PDCA, Monroe Porter, Lynne Fife, and others?

Personall, I have never seen ANYONE work as hard to put together an entire package for paint contractors as I have witnessed Mark doing. Sure, he will make some money, some day and he deserves every penny. But whatever Mrk earns will just be a drop in the bucket compared to how much the people that use his stuff will be earning.

I am sure that all of those that I mention, work VERY hard too. I just haven't got that close to them. I have had lenghty conversations and read and possibly even implimented a thing or two from them. I am just curious as to why you brought up Mark instead of the others??

Richard, It appears to me, that Gerber and his E-myth book is the MOST valuable and first tool that contractors should use when starting out. Understanding the parts about how it costs you more to work IN your business, rather than ON it, is simple and brilliant. When you look at the monies, hours, etc, and understand them, it becomes VERY clear that the longer a person stays "in the bucket", the worse off they will be, and the less money they will earn. The only exception that I can imagine is if the owner in the bucket could ONLY do that job. But if that is the case, and he/she desires more money, the yHAVE to hire other people to work ON their business for them. Without doing those things, the yHAVE to plateu at some point. And where they plateu is waaaay belooooooow of where they could take their business if they were out of the bucket.

Then it is just a matter of choosing and using the best sytems. Everyone uses them, whether they realize it or not. The types of brushes they buy is a system. The time they wake up is a system. How they relax is a system.......

When I read "easily duplicable systems" in e-mayth, a GIANT light bulb went off. Since then, for me anyway, my business life has just been a series of adventures, and educations, to either find NEW systems, or find Better systems to replace the ones that we already use. I am convinced that if people do those things, it is almost impossible to not get to wherever they want to go.

I do find that a LOT of people make the mistake of not "hearing/reading" the "easily duplicable" part of systems. If we switch to a system that I can only use, or someone else in our company can only use, it is almost useless. However, if it is a system that can be taught to a 6th grader within minutes, then it is one helluva system. If you can build a company that is full of those, you have real winner! If you have abunch of fancy systems that are nearly impossible to duplicate, that is almost as bad as "big hat, no cattle,,"

The foundation of the business will not hold IMO and without me, unless it is built with "easily duplcable" systems. They won't get you laid, or get lots of respect at the bars, but your life and business will be like a walk in the park!

At least that is how I see and experience things at this point in time.

Out,
Paul

p.s. I haven't talked to Mark in a lot longer time than I'd like. But that is mostly MY fault. Mark is a great guy, even if just as a friend, but he is MUCH more than that.

p.p.s. Richard, I forgot to tell you that I also think YOU are a helluva guy. I will let everyone know WHY I think you are a helluva guy, after I have given you the opportunity to answer this question about Mark, and also hear your views on my current and post E-myth reading theories.

George Z · 03-05-2006, 05:47 PM

"Gerber and his E-myth book is the MOST valuable and first tool that contractors should use when starting out."

NAPP's In Gear program can guide the paint contractor
step by step, on how to build a business that produces
predictable results.
It will not build the systems for you but it will provide you
the processes necessary to do it yourself.

Paul Burns · 03-05-2006, 07:40 PM

George

So what you have just written, means that a painter today, can spend 15.00 for a book, or join Napp and take the "in-Gear" course for the price of a lunch or two, (acually don't know the price, but sure it is reasonable) and learn more in a few weeks, than I knew after being in this business for 15 years!

That's a really hard pill for me to swallow. Man, I wish all of this help was around when I was young. Maybe I can talk Superman into reversing the earth's rotation so that I can have a second chance. Ug oh, this is NOT a dress rehersal, and there are no second chances, are there? Nice guys finish last, and the good die young. That means that I should live a long life as a winner, doesn't it? "Sometimes it's Heaven, sometimes it's Hell, and sometimes, I don't even know." I seem to be stuck on the "Outlaws" with Waylon, Willie, Jessie, Tompall, and who else? Great album. But where does a slow movin, once quick-draw outlaw...got to go?

But in reality, I probably wouldn't have used it. I was too busy smoking contracts, drinking all of the rent money, and writing bad checks to women that I'd never met before!

You know, another good thing about this business is that even at an older age, you can still get out of the bucket, earn enough money to do and eat whatever, wherever, and whenever you want, AND build yourself a "money machine" to support your retirement, in just 3-5 years. Maybe even quicker.

I mean, how much is THAT worth?

cutnroller · 03-06-2006, 12:06 PM

I guess it's safe to say that education comes from a variety of sources and experiences. For myself, most of my education has come from the guys I've worked side by side with and NOT the company owners.

For instance, every company I have worked for has been led by an "out of the bucket" owner. I have been able to pick up little things about the business end from these guys, but as as previously mentioned these guys tend to keep the business details to themselves as much as possible. As for the actual application though I've learned a lot from working with painters more experienced than myself. I worked side by side with a crusty old ticketed painter for about two years and even though he kicked my ass hard the whole time, I really learned a lot about how to get the job done.

Now as I go into running things for myself it becomes more and more clear that the business end of things is my weakest area, so I'm reading about 4 hrs a day from any resource I can find, I'm checking the forums and trying to contribute where I can, and using the internet and all it's resources.

So even though I've only worked for a few companies over the past decade, I can think of probably 20 or so good painters that I have worked with and learned from. I know I will make business mistakes, but hopefully by learning the business end of things as much as possible those mistakes will be reduced. I know I've learned a lot from this forum already and hope to continue using this resource for as long as it exists.

Brian · 03-06-2006, 02:12 PM

I agree with Paul about E-Myth. And I agree with George about In-Gear.

E-Myth will tell you WHAT you need to do. In-Gear will show you HOW to do it. E-Myth explains why you need systems, and In-Gear helps you create and document those systems.

Brian Phillips

1Painter · 03-06-2006, 08:23 PM

I learned the old fashion way, They would say shut up,watch,ask ???s, and maybe you will be able to washout our brushes, or hey potboy blow out these three tips(way before rev) and don't mess it up. Learned to have a thick skin.
Look at me now I can spell paintor.