Custom new home - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Vermacelli · 04-01-2006, 08:49 PM

Hello everyone, this is my first post on the site. I've been in the painting business part time for the last 8 years and now have pursued it full time for the last year and a half and run a small business and do about 95% of the work myself.

I was asked by a general contractor to submit a bid for painting an interior of a 3K+ sq. ft. custom built single floor home with vaulted ceilings. There's 17 different rooms/spaces and each will be a different wall, trim, and ceiling color. I based my bid according to how much time it would take me to basically spray out the ceilings, walls, and doors and then go back and paint the trim by hand. Without official notice of the acceptance of the bid, I went back to the site to discuss the details with the general contractor. The homeowner now wants a very fine "stipple" finish to the walls and ceilings for the entire house. The general contractor brought me over to a nearby house so I could see for myself the type of finish they wanted. Basically, its a relatively smooth finish with a micro texture stipple finish which he calls a "level 5 smoothness."

I've never done any type of textured, faux, or stipple finish before so I let the general contractor know this but he insisted that its easy to do but he's never actually seen the process. This is a large job and can be very profitable for me as long as its a basic paint job. But now I'm debating on whether or not to take it on, how much extra to charge, or if I can even provide the finish results they're looking for. There's no way I can finish the job myself in the allowed time without spraying as I've read that stipple finish requires rolling and special paint. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I should go about this? I really don't want to lose this job since the exterior painting is also up for grabs.
Thanks for any replies.

**ProWallGuy** · 04-01-2006, 08:53 PM

Shame you didn't take a picture of the finish, as I have no idea what type you are describing. It could be anything from an orangepeel, or a light sand finish, etc.

I would have major concerns bidding on a job where I didn't know how to provide the finish that is being spec'ed.

Vermacelli · 04-01-2006, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProWallGuy

Shame you didn't take a picture of the finish, as I have no idea what type you are describing. It could be anything from an orangepeel, or a light sand finish, etc.

I would have major concerns bidding on a job where I didn't know how to provide the finish that is being spec'ed.

I tried to snap some photos but the surface finish doesn't show up. I rubbed out the texture onto a piece of paper with a pencil and brought it to my local Kelly-Moore and the only suggestion the manager had was to use a stipple roller.

That's my main concern. The house belongs to the CEO of an engineering contractor firm. I recently did the paint job for the home of the controller for the firm so he highly recommended me to his boss for the job.

**slickshift** · 04-01-2006, 09:42 PM

Then it may be worth it to you to invest a little time and materials into this
Can you get some chunks of sheetrock, heck buy a few sheets of a bud? or can you fit a few in your van/truck?
Prime it up, get some mis-tint from your paint shop's basement, get a few of these stipple sleeves and try and reproduce what you saw on 2-foot squares of it

Decide on around 4-6 "keepers"

Label them
Take the closest one and call it Vermacelli Texture #7A (or whatever) show it to the customer (or whoever will be contracting you), and get them to sign off on it
If it's "too bumpy" or "too smooth" whip out some others you did, VT #s 7, 5, 11, 9B...ext...

If you can't easily reproduce something that's close consider passing

Don't forget to re-work your bid to reflect the new painting technique
A custom stipple is more money, the original bid did not include a custom stipple

Exroadog · 04-01-2006, 09:44 PM

Level 5 is smooth. A fine stipple can be created by back rolling with a mo-hair or similar sleeve. This would be the quickest. Would give a fine, yet smooth stipple finish. Picture would be helpfull though.

Vermacelli · 04-01-2006, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exroadog

Level 5 is smooth. A fine stipple can be created by back rolling with a mo-hair or similar sleeve. This would be the quickest. Would give a fine, yet smooth stipple finish. Picture would be helpfull though.

Can this effect be created by spraying first then going back and backrolling with certain sleeves and would high quality egg shell paints work or would I need to use a certain type of paint? Thanks for the reply.

Vermacelli · 04-01-2006, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slickshift

Then it may be worth it to you to invest a little time and materials into this

If you can't easily reproduce something that's close consider passing

Don't forget to re-work your bid to reflect the new painting technique
A custom stipple is more money, the original bid did not include a custom stipple

Thanks for the advice. I'll definately try to reproduce the finish on some panels and see if its something I can easily do repeatedly and efficiently.

As for the original bid, I knew there was going to be some extra work involved because the homeowner at the time had not decided on the final layout of colors, trim, crown moldings, etc. so the original bid was set about 40% higher than what I normally charge.

CarlW · 04-01-2006, 10:59 PM

Am I the only one here that feels like I'm reading a thread on the internet while floating through the Twilight Zone?

It sounds like this guy wants his walls PAINTED!

That's what we do, isn't it? What else do we 'normally' do?

Drywall finishes have levels....I'm not really sure, but I think level 4 is pretty standard for smooth drywall. Level 5 I believe is perfection. When you paint over level 5 drywall with a roller sleeve, the effect it leaves is called stipple. If you use a big nap, you get a big stipple....little nap, little stipple. What is so special about the technique that this guy is after because I'm missing it!

**ProWallGuy** · 04-01-2006, 11:10 PM

Maybe I'm wrong, but I assumed that the original poster would know an average paint finish stipple, and this wasn't it.

CarlW · 04-02-2006, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProWallGuy

Maybe I'm wrong, but I assumed that the original poster would know an average paint finish stipple, and this wasn't it.

Yeah, I figured that too....what threw me off was that the contractor said he wanted 'level 5 smoothness' and in my experience that is smooth drywall lingo.

Vermacelli · 04-24-2006, 01:50 AM

I picked up some stipple paint from Kelly-Moore and did some sample boards with several different types of rollers. Some came close to the finish but not exactly the same but fortunately the homeowners picked out one that they would accept. The general contractor still insists on a level 5 smoothness for the drywall. My bid for the exterior was accepted and is half way complete. They used fascial boards made of MDF with a wood-grain texture which I've never seen used on an exterior before. The interior is going to start in a few days after the drywallers are done and the general contractor agreed on a time & materials rate. Thanks for all the responses.

AAPaint · 04-24-2006, 10:10 AM

Wow, MDF trim on an exterior? All I can say is I hope it's back primed. You say you bought "stipple paint"......umm, what's that? I'm quite confused as well because around here level 5 finish is the drywall, and not the paint. I get the feeling your talking about orange peel which is common and easy to achieve using a 3/4" lambswool/sheepskin whatever...

johnjamesalaska · 04-24-2006, 09:55 PM

The homeowner now wants a very fine "stipple" finish to the walls and ceilings for the entire house.

Stipple is the textured pattern left in the paint by the roller. The bigger the nap the bigger the pattern. Anything above a 3/8s nap roller on a level 5 would be uncommon. Or would have made the level 5 drywall finish unnecessary.

Mike Finley
Posts: 3,836 The big difference between level 5 and 4 is that 5 has to have a skim coat over the entire surface. The big difference between level 4 and 3 is level 4 can be painted where as level 3 can't be painted but has to be textured. Level 2 would have tool marks in it and is suitible as a backing surface for say tile or the level you might see in somebodies garage. There also is a level 1 and 0 but who knows, that stuff might not even have mud on it?

Vermacelli · 04-24-2006, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AAPaint

You say you bought "stipple paint"......umm, what's that? I'm quite confused as well because around here level 5 finish is the drywall, and not the paint. I get the feeling your talking about orange peel which is common and easy to achieve using a 3/4" lambswool/sheepskin whatever...

It says "stipple paint" on the Kelly-Moore can and has an eggshell sheen, I guess a thicker paint with particles or something. The guy at the store said its not very common anymore so they only stock a few gallons at a time. The finish they wanted was one done with a medium carpet stipple roller. The drywall had a skim coat put on over the weekend and the guys were sanding it down today and filling in low spots.

AAPaint · 04-25-2006, 10:33 AM

Amen to stipple paint...just never heard of it before. I learn something new here every day!

**slickshift** · 04-25-2006, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AAPaint

..stipple paint...never heard of it before. I learn something new here every day!

Ditto and ain't that the truth

Vermacelli · 04-26-2006, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AAPaint

Amen to stipple paint...just never heard of it before. I learn something new here every day!

Each store only carries 2 gallons at a time so it has to be special ordered for the job, two day wait. To further complicate things, its only available in an eggshell finish with limited types of tint bases. So for semi gloss surfaces such as the bath and kitchen or certain colors, I first have to spray prime, spray the stipple paint, back roll with a stipple roller, and finally spray on the semi gloss or certain color paint. That's why I asked for a time & materials agreement. This is my first new construction job as I mainly take on residential repaints and apartment turnovers which are no brainers.

djshady · 05-01-2006, 09:14 PM

hi its dave , from australia, level 5 finish, stipple paint, never heard such rubbish , if the owner likes your work, and you come recommended, then show him your level 8 finish with a smooth mohair roller finish ,or whatever is your best, and sell yourself my friend. Dont pander to the building contractor , stop doing samples etc. rubbish if you dont now what you can do by now change jobs mate.

Vermacelli · 05-01-2006, 10:49 PM

Dont pander to the building contractor , stop doing samples etc. rubbish if you dont now what you can do by now change jobs mate.[/quote]

Residential repaints and fixing homeowner self-done paint jobs is my thing. I see this as a learning experience for new construction and the time & materials deal compensates for all the time spent on test panels, color and sheen options. Over the weekend I sprayed out the entire house ceilings in stipple eggshell, contractor didn't like the sheen eventhough I told him in advance that I did'nt think he would. So I will be spraying 75% of it over in flat tomorrow.....such a waste of materials. The more changes they make, the longer it takes so I end up making more money and don't have to move my equipment from job to job.

DCA1GR8P8R · 05-01-2006, 11:26 PM

stipple is not as hard as it sounds...stipple is in faxct the texture left buy the nap of a roller.....if you are looking for the right way to apply stipple it is easy and not to stressful.....
1.spray on the finish as you would spraying out a normal wall...
2. back roll with a 3/8 nap roller i use an 18 inch and watch for ropes...the stipple comes from the nap...and if it gets to saturated roll off in an epmty 18 inch roller pan or tray this will keep the stipple uniform and create a gr8 product and you will have a gr8 following after the effects have dried... much luck and glad to be any assistance to you