Big Argument On Last Job

MarvinWilleyJr

He must not have been very happy if he started yelling about paying an hour early. When I first read this I thought it was kinda stupid for the guy not paying, but after reading and thinking more about it.....there is now way I would pay you before you were done, nor would I expect to be paid!

The story just sounds fishy to me......more to it that you have told.

You might have been rude about the way you asked him for payment, or something else.

Regardless.....how can you expect payment before you were done? What about a walk thru? And if you got in a yelling match, you two don't seem to be to HAPPY with each other. Just odd.

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A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.

BMAN

I agree with George, we never have this problem either. Most of the time the customers are giving checks without even requesting them. We never take a deposit on a job that is less than $5000 unless the material is the bulk of the price (cabinets, mirrors etc.) The a deposit is 1/3 and not till the day we start unless they volunteer it sooner.

daArch

George,

There are many expenses involved with a business that are not part of the actual production work. One needs to understand all of them and build them into the estimates. It's called "cost of doing business"

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Wallcovering Installations by Bill Archibald|paperhanger|Eastern Mass|Greater Boston Area|Dover|Wellesley|Franklin|Sharon|MA

Wolverine-Eric

You guys don't crucify me when I ask this question. How is it that this makes it tough on the small guys?

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Some things just shouldn't be mixed... like... Kids & Paint

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MarvinWilleyJr

One way I can see would be if materials were 1500 to start and you could only get 1000.....have to use 500 of your own cash. That's one problem I could see.

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A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.

Patrick

Why is it the customers fault that your living pay check to paycheck??? I usually end up having to pay my subs in full before i get a check from a customer.

jensenconstruction

This is tough on the small guys because they quite often do not have the operating capital to fund the job.

Say for example your remodeling a kitchen and you have custom cabinets that need to be ordered 8 weeks ahead of the start date and they want a 50% deposit say $4000. Plus special order fixtures and lighting with deposits of $1500. So long before the job ever starts your into it for $5500 plus permits. As you can see you can end up out of pocket quite a sum of money before ever setting foot on the job. Now imagine if your running two or more projects at once.

The law states that you can only take 10% or $1000 whichever is less and that progress payments may not exceed the value of completed work or of materials that have been delivered to the job site. The law also specifically states that there is NO provision for special order materials. So you cannot charge for these items until they are delivered to the site.

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Jensen Construction & Painting
San Francisco Bay area Remodeling
Bay area Painting

Chris Johnson

Jenson;

If you are ordering materials and have proof (reciept) you are legally allowed to get a higher deposit, the 10%/$1000 rule is for signing the contract and 'holding the spot for the customer'. As soon as you do something for the project, such as the deposit for the 8 week out cabinets you are legally allowed to obtain an additional deposit, it is justified as you have incurred an expense on the project and you reciept from the cabinet shop is sufficient to justify this.

Your a painter doing a custom home to the tune of $ 30000.00 in the North Bay area (this is realistic), customer signs contract and gives to $ 1000.00 deposit to hold the spot open and start work on Sept 1. You want to be prepared and go to local paint store on Aug 29 and get $ 5000.00 worth of paint and sundries, just to be ready to go on Sept 1, you go to the customers house and drop off materials, excuse me Mr. Smith, all product is here I need a draw for $ 5000.00 to cover my costs to date, no problem Mr. Jenson here's your check. Oh, Mr Smith, the wallpaper was special order, it will arrive next Thursday I gave a deposit of $ 500.00 as well, please add that to the check, No problem, thanks for the receipt.

It's simple, legal and falls within the rules and regulations of CSLB. Then the day you start get your "Mobilization" fee and be at 33% immediately

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Chris

jensenconstruction

Chris,

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but here it is direct from the CSLB website and clearly states you may not collect for work not completed or materials not delivered.


"The schedule of progress payments must specifically describe each phase of work, including the type and amount of work or services scheduled to be supplied in each phase, along with the amount of each proposed progress payment. IT IS AGAINST THE LAW FOR A CONTRACTOR TO COLLECT PAYMENT FOR WORK NOT YET COMPLETED, OR FOR MATERIALS NOT YET DELIVERED. HOWEVER, A CONTRACTOR MAY REQUIRE A DOWNPAYMENT."

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Jensen Construction & Painting
San Francisco Bay area Remodeling
Bay area Painting

Chris Johnson

Hey Jenson;

Don't you love government rules and regulations and the lawyers that find every loophole they can.

I see what you posted, as my lawyer read through it (this was years ago), a deposit for materials that I must make is immediately recoverable with evidence of a reciept given to the customer, so if I go to the supply house and pay a deposit for special order materials (All my foam is special order, no one stocks it) I can get reimbursed as this is work directly related to the project. My receipts say "Ship TO:" on them and I have the receipt from the supplier showing same.

Now, if I had a fraudulant receipt, that would be illegal and I am sure the CSLB would be anxious to take action at that

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Chris

jensenconstruction

Hey Chris,

That might be the problem your lawyer looked at it a few years ago, and this is from the new regulations that went into effect last year as part of the whole home improvement contract makeover.

Jeff

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Jensen Construction & Painting
San Francisco Bay area Remodeling
Bay area Painting

jensenconstruction

Chris,

Also take a look at this regarding down payments. and the specific exclusion of special orders.


Down Payment – If the contract calls for a down payment before work starts, the down payment can not be more than one thousand dollars ($1,000) or 10 percent of the contract price, whichever is less, for a home improvement job or swimming pool, excluding finance charges. There are no exceptions for special order materials.

Jeff

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Jensen Construction & Painting
San Francisco Bay area Remodeling
Bay area Painting

Chris Johnson

Jeff;

Okay, you win, I never looked back at the regulations since I was licensed, reading it now I'll bet the lawyer would tell me that I am doing commercial and new construction, not home improvements and that we are covered.

I think (and that could be the problem right there) If I need to layout $ 25000.00 for product being shipped in and I have proof of ordering (reciept, cancelled check, etc) the customer also needs to anti up to show there seriousness of the contract and there commitment to pay.

I am a concrete guy, one of the first ones on the job, if they have trouble paying me, I feel sorry for you the painter and I have seen that more than once, I am sure you have too

We should really move this to the "Business" section

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Chris

Grumpyplumber

I can just imagine the nail biting gap on a 50K remodel between the first 1K payment and the next payment after paying for all the stock and covering a week or two for payroll..I'm sorry but thats rediculous.
Why is CA so hard on contractors??

jensenconstruction

Chris,

No winner here, Just trying to share the information so no one get nailed on a violation.

Also the requirement do not apply to commerical work so you should be ok.

rocco- sorry about hijacking your thread.

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Jensen Construction & Painting
San Francisco Bay area Remodeling
Bay area Painting

Mike Finley

Do you really need an answer?

Chris Johnson

35 million people in one state, we have more than our fair share of fly by night contractors out there, if you get a chance check out www.cslb.ca.gov you may have to search around but I remember there was a section on violators updated monthly, the list was long.

Too often people lay out money and the guy dissapears from one day to the next, sting operations are huge out here, they are constantly looking for people to donate their house as the sting location, they set up appointments with 'contractors' either from violation reports, newspaper adds, I suppose craigslist as well, set up shop in your home, have these 'contractors' come in and give estimates, when done, write them a ticket or arrest them, depends on the circumstances.

There was a news article not to long ago about some 'contractor' in California, forth conviction for contracting without a license or might have had a suspended license, can't remember, anyways he's now doing time in crowbar motel.

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Chris

jensenconstruction

Here's a link to a story on one of the sting operations a few months back
http://www.cslb.ca.gov/news/industry20070321.asp

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Jensen Construction & Painting
San Francisco Bay area Remodeling
Bay area Painting

Chris Johnson

After reading that Jeff, it's got to be a tough go for painters on remodels, seems a lot of the noteworthy cases involved painters. Is this something you run across regularly - Fly-By-Nighters?

My trade is pretty safe from fly by nights, jobs are too big

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Chris

jensenconstruction

Fly-BY-Nighters are a huge problem in the painting trade. Seams like any crackhead with a brush thinks he can paint.

Fortunatly a few years back I got my B license so I do mostly remodeling now. I still have a painting crew but it is no longer my main focus, so I tend to be a little more selective on the jobs I go after.

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Jensen Construction & Painting
San Francisco Bay area Remodeling
Bay area Painting