Bidding Per Sq Ft

RichardsPaint

I know that different people bid their jobs in various ways. I've been painting for 10 years, both commercial and residential. In business 10 months. As a business I intend on focusing on repaints (residential) for the time being. I learned the trade from two men with a small company, I was with that company for 10 years. I have done all my home work as far as running a business. I have my accountant that does my numbers. I have most of my advertising in place, I will post a new topic for needs I have in that department.

I have 2 guys that work for me now, between them they have almost 30 years of experience, I worked along side them for 3 years with the company I was employed with. I know our production numbers to an extent...not as well as I would like, but that will come with time.

I need some input on estimating methods. For instance, I know what I need to make per hour, per day, etc. But I would like a formula for bidding per sq ft, this way I'm not arbitrarily guessing what I need to bid per room. I am curious as to if you guys have found a number per sq that you charge.

i.e. A room is 10x12x7 no openings larger than 10'= 308 sq ft. Minimal prep. 3 doors, 2 windows. Now, I know we can finish this size room in a day prep/walls(2 coats)/trim(1 coat). And I know what I need per day, but it seems to me that a formula would be more exact, and I would not price under, or over for a given job

So, if I were pricing a job at 1.50 per sq (labor) the job would come in at $462.00 labor + materials
. This would include the trim. I know that we all have different overhead, and different plans for our business. I'm just trying to get a handle on a formula. I would like your guys thoughts.

RichardsPaint

Early bump. Sorry, but I am really looking for some input and just don't want it to fall below the radar

ProWallGuy

Sorry, but I know of no sure-fire sq ft formula. Using a sq ft method (IMHO) will only work after you have all your production rates nailed, for most everything. I basically use a half-assed production rate + unit pricing for most jobs. Plus I factor in the value of my service.

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RichardsPaint

There has to be a way. Say you have an entire interior to paint. I have done it thus far exactly like you....I think. I go in and figure OK, 3 guys can paint this room in a day, that's $***.xx, so on and so forth, then I figure my materials, add in my profit, and walla, there's your price.

But it just seems so haphazard, I know that on some jobs I'm leaving money on the table, but at others I know I just bidded to high. If I had a sq ft formula I would know what my price was without all the guess work.

I know that the paint trade is different from other "cosmetic" trades in that there are more variables, but I believe if I could find a formula that works...not necessarily the sq ft formula but some formula that I would be much more competitive.

ProWallGuy

Best advice I could give you then is to find and purchase the Estimators Guide Vol I & II put out by the PDCA. Volume I is estimating procedures, and vol II is rates & tables. Also pick up their book The Business of Painting. Also get Markup & Profit by Michael Stone.
Study these, and come up with a good way to estimate that works for your company, that you are comfortable with.

To use a SQ FT method solely, you will need to use production rates, tied in with multipliers, such as levels of prep, height, degree of difficulty, etc. It gets pretty damn complicated. All these divided by surface area. Pretty damn complicated. If you don't have them all nailed down, and sure of them, then its just not gonna work on every job.

But, I do agree. It is best to get down a definitive system, able to produce consistent numbers from job to job.

I'll add that a sq ft price probably would work if you were going to do a crap-load of identical tract homes, or apartment units, etc. This way you could have you times/numbers down after 2 or 3 units.

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BMAN

I have been on my own for five years now and I think that Sq ft pricing only works on new construction for sure. On repaints it just seems like a win or lose situation. I peronally like doing a day to day estimate. You know what your daily capability is so put in the numbers based on that. You and your guys labor plus materials. Its that simple. On rpaints you must always have a disclaimer on your estimate sheet (small print if you will) that states the price can change if hidden damage or customer changes are added to the job. I now know what I want for me and two guys per day, me and one guy per day and me alone. I use those numbers and add the materials and the days for my price. it works.

RichardsPaint

Thanks Pro that makes sense, I knew the difficulty level of PSF pricing structure would be high. I'm a simple man, and I need something that simplifies, not complicates things. I will get the PDCA materials, I've already read the M. Stone book, and though I picked up some nuggets from it, I can't find a way to apply it across the board.

ProWallGuy

I think thats the key, at least for me. I take a little of everything I learn, and try to apply it here and there, where it works for me. Take all those nuggets, and blend them into a system that works for my biz. Not all systems or procedures will be best for all companies. Some will work, some won't. At least thats my 2 cents.

Also, check out NAPP. They have some good resources for the business end of it.

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slickshift

I think most who do sq. ft. on repaints will tell you, sometimes they win, sometimes they lose
That method doesn't work for me, as the same sq. footage can be radically different time-wise for repaints
Maybe if I had a number of crews out, it'd be OK if one didn't make the numbers on a job, the rest would cover it
But I'm a small op, I can't afford that

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Brian

Calculating a price based on floor sf is almost always a loser, in my opinion. The floor sf tells us nothing about what we are actually painting. For example, a 20' by 20' room has 400 sf of floor and 640 sf of walls. But if that same space is divided into 4 rooms, the floor sf is the same but the wall sf goes to 1280.

If you price by the floor sf the price would be the same for the 20' by 20' room as 4 10' by 10' rooms.

And if doors, windows, base, crown, etc. are also painted, your price could be way out of whack.

Brian Phillips

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Dave Mac

I think what you should think about instead of floor space is, measuring things like the linear ft of the boxing of the house, know your production rate for the type it happens to be. Or have a price for a particular window, lots will fall in the same production rate. after you have your production rates for all surfaces you can convert them them to unit prices, an example would be like .50 sq ft for wall space, and so on.

As far as floor space, it really has nothing to do with what your painting, however, if you track your numbers, its amzing how close a lot of exteriors with the same floor space come in on man hrs, but their is always some thing differnt, like more rough work, more pickets, more porches.

thanks
dave mac

JNLP

Going by sq ft only in residential is next to impossible I would think. So many differences from job to job. I know my average sq ft price is $1.35. However on my last job it was $1.95, and the job before that it was $0.95. So if I would've used my average, the numbers would've been WAY off.

Looking at all my jobs though, I know my average re-paint is around $1.35.
Took my daily pay (ex. $200)
My helpers daily pay & what I make off him (ex. 200)
Profit wanted (ex. 25%)
Yearly overhead broken down into estimated working days (ex. $65)
So now I know I need to make say $565 a day. Then looking at the sq ft of previous jobs & the amount of time they took, I see I average $1.35 per sq ft. It's nice to know that price simply to compare with my estimate to see if I may be way out of line, or if I'm missing something & going to screw myself.

I found the easiest way for me to estimate something is by piece. I know exactly how long different types of doors will take. How long the trim will take. How long rails will take. Pretty good idea of how long walls will take. I just walk around & start checking off how many of each their are. Add up those hours, add in an hour or two per a day for whatever (setting up, cleaning, ect). Divide the hours by 8 & multiply that number by my daily rate. I'm no pro at estimating though, but it seems to be working well this way.

donb1959

I've struggled with this for a while myself. I've been in business 3 years and still don't have the estimating formula down. I kind of do like Pro said, unit pricing. I'm sure there's a better way to do it, I just haven't found it yet.

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Danahy

I've wasted alot of time brain storming over ways of calculating wall space, when you only know the floor space. The best I could come up with was
Total floor space divide by number of rooms (don't forget the halls)... This will give you the walls, because really a wall that seperates a small room from a larger room... who cares!?

anyhow, once you have the floor space for the (fictional) room, hit the square root button on your nerdulator... this gives you the length of one wall in a fictional room. Multiply it by 4 to get the perimeter, then mulitply by ceiling height (if you know it...).

The major flaws of this are (no idea of wall conditions / bulkheads / tricky cuts etc)
Also you can only really do this if you are painting the whole house, otherwise you need to factor in ratios, and that's a headache right there... such as a kitchen might be 3 times more than a bathroom, and a living room might be 1.5 times larger than a kitchen... That would be the case if someone where to say don't include the laundry room & ensuite or something...

I've tested this a gazillion times, and it still has bugs in it... It's not the way I do estimating personally... Just wanted to find the caramilk secret as far as when someone says "I have a ***X sq ft' home", ball park it...

Should anyone like a recap of this headache its:

floor space / number of rooms
square root button.
multiply by 4 walls
multiply by hieght
multiply by number of rooms

Equals wall square footage. (give or take)

Danahy

The way I estimate now is Visually looking at the walls in every room.

I like to use this little tid bit personally though...

If a house is new the price is just X.
If a house is 10 yrs old the price is X + 10%
If a house is 50 yrs old the price is X + 50%

There are many obvious benefits to this that I won't bore you with... Kinda nice though eh...

donb1959

hmmm, I dunno I measure wall sq ft 10x10x7 10+10x2x7 gives me the sq ft wall space.

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Dorman Painting

I simply try to follow a basic man hour rate, between 35-40 bucks per man hour. This is the basic pricing formula for most trades. For example, if a plumber comes out to your house, he usually charges you by the hour. A mechanic will generally charge between 50-80 bucks an hour.

I don't know how square footage pricing even became so popular. Sometimes I've done square footage pricing and it almost never equals what I would routinely charge by the man hour.

On the 400 square foot bedroom, if two men can get it done in an eight hour day, that's a total of sixteen man hours. At 35 bucks per man hour X 16 man hours ='s 560.00 for the bedroom. You not only made more money but you greatly simplify the idea of pricing. Sometimes the man hour method does come out closely to the square foot method though.

The man hour method must be adjusted accordingly when working in prestigous areas or working in middle class areas. I can guarantee you, most middle class areas won't break off 4-5 grand for a paint job. They'll typically be looking to spend in the ballpark of 2500-3000 tops. This is what makes painting such a tough trade, a plumber charges a flat rate whether it's cleaning out a crapper for a rich guy or a average joe.

D-ball

hmmm interesting. No formula will ever be right on the money, but here is something to think about. A 1500 sq ft home (floor space) X 4 - 10% will give you roughly the amount of drywall that is actually installed in the house. (given 8' ceilings and one level). You then need a price on how much persq ft it costs to buy paint. Then factor in Paint for trim and other finishwork. Find out how long it takes to finish paint a particular window and door size along with how long it takes to finish 1 linear foot of conventional baseboard. Once you can get some numbers on production of employees doing certain aspects of the job it will be easier to estimate. The only real formula you can work with is one you make yourself as there are just so many variables to deal with. My advice is to set yourself some parameters on a base project and then adjust the pricing as these variables come into play. I hope this helps

Danahy

Good job don. Let's try something for fun.

What is the wall space of a home that is 1800 sq ft of floor space, and you can't get in to look at it? Just want to check your formula versus my headache version...

Brian

Danahy,

That 1800 sf house could be one room and the wall space would be about 1360 sf (45'x40' room with 8' ceilings). Or it could be 18 rooms measuring 10' x 10', in which case the wall sf would be 5760 (320 sf per room times 18 rooms). Or it could be anywhere in between. The floor sf tells us nothing about the number of rooms, the size of the rooms, or anything else that would be useful (except ceiling area).

Brian Phillips

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