Behr paint...Why does it suck? - Page 2 - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Paintpimp · 06-05-2009, 09:06 PM

I've just done some testing with a few paints. I rolled out 4 paints. All with same sheen levels. Very close to the same color. I used, Colorplace, Ace Royal, Behr Prem Plus, PM 200. Couple things I noticed was that after the paint dried and cured is the washability and burnish resistance of the coatings. While we tend to talk about coverage, drag, brush and roll characteristics (which there was big differences). I got each paint to cover in two coats. Some paints had bad drag. Behr had huge stipple to it. Colorplace actually laid down but was draggy. Ace was fair with both. 200 worked pretty good. If I was doing smooth walls, Behr would be one of the last I would use. Burnish resistance was very noticeable. It took one stroke of finger rub to burnish Colorplace badly. It took just a couple to burnish Ace. Behr burnished fairly easily too. It took extreme rubbing to burnish 200. I washed the samples with the same amount of pressure and strokes. Colorplace and Ace color rubbed off easily. Behr was actually pretty decent. I would recommend any of you to take time to test out different paints. Do a blind test if necessary to keep out any biases you may have. My point is, we talk about the application alot, but what is the end result is just as important. What is left with our customers. Not all of them look at the walls at an angle in the light. Not all wash there walls or wash them properly. Everybody has different expectations.

world llc · 06-05-2009, 10:12 PM

and none of my customers want to hear I'm charge'n them more cause the dang paint didn't cover in 2 coats... oopsie daisy, my bad.

people use professionals cause we are supposed to be well informed and experianced...
the info on behr is not very good
and my experiance with behr is not very good

i'm sure behr works great for alot of people for alot of reasons, but there are too many other paints i would use before i use behr again

Metro M & L · 06-05-2009, 10:20 PM

There is one more, small, reason behr paint sucks. Until recently, last month, Home Depot did not negotiate with contractors. I haven't talked to them yet but it's something along the line of 10% off if you spend 2k or more.

For your average painting outfit the discount that you get from being a big loyal regular customer becomes very important to the bottom line. In the past it didn't matter if you bought 20$ or 20k worth of Behr paint from Home Crackho, the price was the same. 22.95 vs. a discounted 15.00 (or less) from a Paint retailer makes a big difference if you're applying thousands of gallons a year.

Kuba · 06-05-2009, 10:22 PM

I like what you are trying to say and test, but it isn’t as conclusive as you might think.

This is what I was taught… and I try to pick paints accordingly.. Sometimes I cant use the paint I want b/c the consumer/individual cannot afford it OR doesn’t give a ****.

There is no “perfect paint” it all depends on where you’re going to use it and what condition/material the object is in. Content of paint varies tremendously between companies… here are some of the factors.

First of all (most important)… Each company uses resin in their paint, BUT – the quality and amount of the resin is different in all brands. Resin is the ingredient that keeps the pigments and additives locked together (a binding agent) it’s the mortar of the brick wall so to speak– it also contributes to the “stickiness” and sheen present. Some lay on or brush easier because they “stick” better – higher resin content. It also contributes to the sheen.. Gloss has a higher resin content than flat etc… Just remember Resin = durability&/bonding agent and your cool..

Second, the functionality of the pant (how easy/hard it is to apply, cut, roll out etc) has EVERYTHING to do with the amount of solvent within the paints. In latex solvent is water, spirits for oil.. its that simple.. Solvent is nothing more than an agent to help you get the paint from your tool to the object, nothing more or nothing less. No rocket science here.. BUT this is where companies make HUGE bucks… They rip consumers off by “watering down their product” No different than a bar tender watering down your whiskey!! No **** guys… Cheap paint = LOTS of solvents (water or spirits)

Don’t confuse additives with solvents.. Each company has special additives that increase the functions of their product.… Here, quality of that additive contributes to the products purpose + durability, such as mildew resistance etc.. I won’t say anymore on that, that’s a whole different topic. But needed to be mentioned.

Last but not least – Pigment… This it huge… Just as important as the resin and differs depending on the sheen you are using.. Pigment gives you your hide/cover. There is a huge gap in quality between pigments.. And this is another way for companies to exploit consumers.. You don’t open a can of paint and put it under the microscope to find out if they used high quality pigment… =)

The easiest way to explain this is by comparing very very fine sand to a hand full of river rocks. Cheap paint has low quality pigments (river rocks) and the obvious opposite to that is high quality = fine sand.. Heres why its important.. The resin binds the pigments together and creates a film, ultimately creating its resolution. The finer and increased pigment present increases coverage and thickness after the solvent dries. If there is to much solvent and poor pigment, you got your self poor coverage AND poor durability for the lack of resin.

Companies are not stupid, they are out to make money. Some try to offer consumers an honest and hardy product, but consumers don’t have the time or care in the world to know otherwise. Hey, some people use cheap paint b/c they simply don’t have the money.

I hope that having the ability to identify properties of the paint can help you determine what is good and what is bad. In most cases, price is an obvious indication for a novice, primarily b/c a company isn’t going to put top dollar on a bucket of clay and get away with it for long..

You get what you pay for – almost
Just because you use good paint doesn’t make you a painter it just helps.

tkle · 06-06-2009, 08:45 AM

I may never be a good painter, but at least now I know more than the majority. All present company excluded of course.
Dunn Edwards puts out a bit of info on the contents of their products. Rather impressive I thought.
http://www.dunnedwards.com/retail/do...CB7F8A6A8E6CD8
Good paint is very similar to good mortar. We look for the same qualities.
Wrong link
http://www.dunnedwards.com/retail/documents/document.asp?id={8CFC04E4-46F7-49C7-B67A-6869D2EE200E}http://www.dunnedwards.com/retail/do...-6869D2EE200E}

LAD · 06-07-2009, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumboJack

My buddy is an engineer. "It just does".Wont help me convince him...

Tell him "You can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking your head up a bull's butt, but I'd take the butcher's word for it"-Brian Denehey in Tommy Boy

neolitic · 06-07-2009, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuba

I like what you are trying to say and test, but it isn’t as conclusive as you might think.

This is what I was taught… and I try to pick paints accordingly.. Sometimes I cant use the paint I want b/c the consumer/individual cannot afford it OR doesn’t give a ****.

There is no “perfect paint” it all depends on where you’re going to use it and what condition/material the object is in. Content of paint varies tremendously between companies… here are some of the factors.

First of all (most important)… Each company uses resin in their paint, BUT – the quality and amount of the resin is different in all brands. Resin is the ingredient that keeps the pigments and additives locked together (a binding agent) it’s the mortar of the brick wall so to speak– it also contributes to the “stickiness” and sheen present. Some lay on or brush easier because they “stick” better – higher resin content. It also contributes to the sheen.. Gloss has a higher resin content than flat etc… Just remember Resin = durability&/bonding agent and your cool..

Second, the functionality of the pant (how easy/hard it is to apply, cut, roll out etc) has EVERYTHING to do with the amount of solvent within the paints. In latex solvent is water, spirits for oil.. its that simple.. Solvent is nothing more than an agent to help you get the paint from your tool to the object, nothing more or nothing less. No rocket science here.. BUT this is where companies make HUGE bucks… They rip consumers off by “watering down their product” No different than a bar tender watering down your whiskey!! No **** guys… Cheap paint = LOTS of solvents (water or spirits)

Don’t confuse additives with solvents.. Each company has special additives that increase the functions of their product.… Here, quality of that additive contributes to the products purpose + durability, such as mildew resistance etc.. I won’t say anymore on that, that’s a whole different topic. But needed to be mentioned.

Last but not least – Pigment… This it huge… Just as important as the resin and differs depending on the sheen you are using.. Pigment gives you your hide/cover. There is a huge gap in quality between pigments.. And this is another way for companies to exploit consumers.. You don’t open a can of paint and put it under the microscope to find out if they used high quality pigment… =)

The easiest way to explain this is by comparing very very fine sand to a hand full of river rocks. Cheap paint has low quality pigments (river rocks) and the obvious opposite to that is high quality = fine sand.. Heres why its important.. The resin binds the pigments together and creates a film, ultimately creating its resolution. The finer and increased pigment present increases coverage and thickness after the solvent dries. If there is to much solvent and poor pigment, you got your self poor coverage AND poor durability for the lack of resin.

Companies are not stupid, they are out to make money. Some try to offer consumers an honest and hardy product, but consumers don’t have the time or care in the world to know otherwise. Hey, some people use cheap paint b/c they simply don’t have the money.

I hope that having the ability to identify properties of the paint can help you determine what is good and what is bad. In most cases, price is an obvious indication for a novice, primarily b/c a company isn’t going to put top dollar on a bucket of clay and get away with it for long..

You get what you pay for – almost
Just because you use good paint doesn’t make you a painter it just helps.

Okay, that just makes my eyes hurt.

bigangelman · 06-07-2009, 08:59 AM

Paints have several components, resin, pigments, fillers and vehicle, aka solvent which could be water or spirits. Other sub components are conditioners that help improve adhesion & application. The expensive stuff are the pigments & resin. In my opinion Behr has less resin, it applies nice and levels out good but it doesn't stick or hold together well.
I usually go by the amount of hype a product has the more hype the less money can be spent on the product. I apply that rule to most everything from movies to paint.

Want a good sleeper of a paint? Give Ultrahide by Glidden a try. It's also available at HD $55 for a fiver of flat, $70 for eggshell. This is one of the best values out there

Tom

davy crockett · 06-07-2009, 12:12 PM

SERVICE,,,,,,,,,Can you see me standing in the yard with homeowner and a S.W. rep trying to decide a course of action after a paint failure,,,?,,,I have and it ends well,,,,NOW visualize if you can the same scenario but instead of th eS .W. rep make it the friendly paint shaker from H.D.,,,,,,,,,Can you say BBB complaint?

BrianFox · 06-07-2009, 12:51 PM

not enough pigment
crappy binders
nuff said.

tyler durden · 06-07-2009, 10:19 PM

Beacause they can't even spell bear right, how can they formulate paint.

DenverPainter · 06-08-2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianFox

not enough pigment
crappy binders
nuff said.

+1

jarvis design · 06-08-2009, 04:26 PM

Behr sucks. crap in a can

Best paint I have ever used for application, covering, consistant sheen, cleanability, and touching up 2 years later when your daughter does a chin-up on the towel rack, is C2.

chob · 06-08-2009, 09:09 PM

Dont know if it is to late on the BEHR issue but one thing to consider is what testing methods and procedures are used when Consumer report comes up with there list. Consumer report does not use ASTM testing methods which is the industry standard, if you go to a MPI website and there is an interesting test they did when consumer report came out, the BEHR product failed miserably in the testing methods and is not listed on there site for any recommendations.

Paul Painter · 06-09-2009, 07:43 PM

Behr paint is there for the home owner..when they find out how hard it is to paint with it they call a painter so they can come and put up real paint!! Behr paint sometimes doesnt even stick to itself putting another coat over it...what is in the formula to make up the paint is cheap..it is full of impure fillers..maybe even chalk as a filler..the vinyl or what ever that plastic type smell you have when you open the can tells me not to use it..the amount of raw titium dioxide (the meat and potatoes) of a paint just is not there!!! It rolls out weird..if you try to back roll you are actually removing the paint..it just sucks..tell you buddy the consumer reports are untrue..the sales are up..people using the paint just figure they are applying it wrong..always go with one of the paints from the top three manufactures of paint that have a proven track record..not sure what else to say..I will never let a customer direct me with what Im to use..they go to who I deal with to look at colors..it wont be home depot!!

abm2958 · 06-14-2009, 10:25 AM

Like others have said the Behr doesn't cut well, doesn't flow well out of the brush, doesn't keep a wet edge, doesn't roll well and flow out... you name it it's not anywhere close to the quality of BM, SW, or any good quality paint.

The last job I was forced to use this on was T&M for a homeowner who bought their own paint for a new addition. Instead of cutting it in once or twice it had to be done three times to cover properly. When we started rolling the walls I'd get down the wall about 10 feet and look back to see some areas starting to sag, not bad enough for a homeowner to notice but enough to have to go back and re-roll it if we wanted to get paid for a quality job. Instead of putting on two coats we had to roll three to cover the tinted primer. In the end they would have been much better off to pay me a couple bucks more a gallon for Benjamin Moore than to pay the additional labor involved to make this junk look good.

I guess if your time is worth nothing it doesn't matter, use the Behr and you'll soon know why it's crap.

Duckwarrior · 06-15-2009, 12:12 AM

This post is filled with so many fallacies and just plain asinine logic its almost overwhelming... but since i believe people deserve to have accurate information, here goes.

Quote:

Slickshift:

I don't know
I never felt it was worth my time to find out exactly
It's not like HD is going to have a website devoted why Behr can be hard to use, or be forthcoming with the formulation of their paint
I do know it was formulated to meet certain Target HD Customer Values/Points
Maybe that will help...

Well, if you haven't taken the time, perhaps you should not comment at all. Behr does not necessarily need to print on the side of their can what it contains, but legally they are obligated to provide an accurate MSDS to the average joe, as well as anyone else who inquires. I do however, feel that it is almost criminal that they do not include the contents on their label... but even if they did, they'd probably follow the same routine as every other manufacturer and omit half the details. Ever see ethlene glycol listed on the side of a paint can? I haven't either, but it's in there.

1) It has to look like the chip while wet and in the can
Stupid as this sounds, it's true
Think of the average HD customer opening up the can of paint at home and seeing it a shade off...they will freak...they will have returns up the ying/yang

This is asinine, Even if HD/Lowes was concerned about this, it wouldn't matter. As long as they're still using oxides for colorant the paint in the can is NEVER going to resemble the finished product. Oxides deepen rapidly as they dry. Grab a base sometime and throw just red/yellow/brown oxide in. Notice what happens. Beyond that acrylic resins have a haze. Even a neutral base is going to look white until it dries. It's part of the reason some reds look pink in the can.

HD knows it will be not be sold by knowledgeable paint people and they won't take the time-nor does HD want them to take the time-to educate the customers
HD only wants them to get as much product as possible out the door as fast as possible

I can't contend with this too much, although i do believe the big boxes desire knowledgeable people selling the paint and educating the customer. A large amount of product failures and thus returns/bad word of mouth are generated by poor application and prep.

2) It has to "cover/hide"
Now, this has different meanings to the average HD customer than to a professional painter (they want it to hide the dirt they aren't cleaning off because they are painting...ya know, why clean it if we are painting anyway), but sufficed to say that this criteria means a crap load of... (I couldn't tell you what they use for sure, I suppose it's titanium dioxide), and that affect the pigments and other qualities of the paints

Oddly enough, one of the things this affects adversely is "hiding" in certain colors
I can't say why, I can only say that everything is a compromise, and if you load up on one corner, the other corners are affected

Titanium dioxide is a high quality pigment used by many top notch companies including SW. You seem to assume every DIYer is a complete idiot. It's a poor elitest logic. I have ment plenty of pro's who didn't know **** either.

3) It has to dry quickly
This is at the expense of pretty much anything like leveling, lap marks, roller marks, picture framing/hat-banding...none of those things are important to their average HD paint customer

I've used BM Aura and believe it to be a top notch paint. See which dries faster.

4) It has to be cheap enough so HD can charge what there average customers perceive as "a good price", yet still maintain a high profit margin (HD does not make money on "volume" alone, as they allow their customers to believe)
This means LOTS of fillers
Again, I couldn't tell you exactly what, I can only make an educated guess it's cheap clay
Obviously this also affect the paint qualities we appreciate

Here is where you're really off your ****. HD/Lowes typically carry a margin on their emulsions that equates to nigh. The higher end stuff carries around a 20-25% margin, the lower grade product carries about an 8% margin. Out of this comes colorant, color cards, returns/misstints, etc. All of these are quite expensive, the later very expensive when you're not making much money off of it to begin with. The profit margin for big box paint companys is slim, their money maker is applicators. A 10 dollar house brush is costing them around ~95 cents. It is volume that keeps the big box business alive. They can afford to run at an average ~30% margin versus a 45% margin and keep a healthy P&L by sheer volume.

This all fits into HD CPV approach to selling stuff
Customer Perceived Value
They feel their average customer won't perceive the value of maintaining a wet edge, lack of roller/lap marks or hat-banding, leveling characteristics, or resistance to burnishing...etc...etc...

I think we all appreciate a paint that hides well. I'm not sure where this poor attitude came from. I wore a tool belt (well, i had a tool bucket) for many years and never felt i was in a position to condecend to anyone. (that never came until i was behind a keyboard).

Quality in a product or service is not what the supplier puts in. It is what the customer gets out and is willing to pay for. A product is not quality because it is hard to make and costs a lot of money, as people typically believe. This is incompetence. Customers pay only for what is of use to them and gives them value. Nothing else constitutes quality.

In that respect, as long as an 8 dollar can of paint looks good on the wall and makes the end user happy... its quality despite its low grade.

They will want an inexpensive paint that hides well and dries quickly, and looks the same wet and in the can as it does on the chip

They do not perceive value to their time or effort
As un-enlightened DIYers (behr-using that is), they expect it to take time and to effort...and to suck...
So as long as it doesn't take three weeks to paint the living room, and doesn't suck enough for them to off themselves (now, remember, they don't know it's not supposed to be that bad), they are happy customers

Your arrogance, crystal clear again.

Unfortunately you're right, in a way. Customers generally do not perceive the value of their time as an additional cost of the job. Does that make Behr or Valspar a bad product? Absolutely not. They deliver great results in these dim witted mildly retarded like DIY hands. In an industry where backward engineering the competitors product and applying that knowledge to your own is common place i don't think any company is in a position to throw rocks. In the end its the consumer (you're included in that pool, btw) that wins. Do i believe behr is the best paint in the world? In short, no. But i believe both HD and Lowes provide good paints at an excellent and very fair price point. To Pro's and lowly DIY's alike. Although i do find behr nabbing consumer reports top spot every time (even with kilz which is a masco product now under the behr engineering umbrella) a bit disengenuious.

There ya go there's more I'm sure
But basically you have a paint that meets specific desires of the marketing dept. for a product aimed at un-educated occasional painting DIYers that don't know how to paint or what paint should do or look like when finished, but know they want it to dry fast and hide the dirt they are painting over, and it better look like the chip when it's wet and in the can.

My intention was not to be an ass. I've learned a lot from this board, i believe its my turn to share some knowledge. Thank you for your time.