Bathroom Paint Problem - Strange Peeling - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

firemike · 06-02-2007, 07:21 PM

Helped a friend repair their bathroom, now ceiling is peeling.

Older house, built in the late 40's, they just bought it last summer, blueboard/plaster walls and ceilings. Heres what happened:

They had moisture problems over the winter, so we installed an exhaust fan, ducted to the outside. Had some minor chips and cracks in the ceiling, and moisture staining from the previous years. Everything seemed sound, no mold that was detectable, they washed the ceiling and walls on Friday evening, I came over Monday moring and Kilzed the entire ceiling (oil based).

Tuesday came over and patched the nicks and minor cracks with all purpose joint compound. Stopped back later in the day, sanded it and second coated a couple areas that needed it. let dry overnight. Came back next morning, primed ceiling with PVA primer, went did a 3 hour job, came back and painted 1 coat BM SuperSpec eggshell with the mildecide in it.

Let that dry overnight and came back next day and painted ceiling 2nd coat, and painted 1 coat on the walls. They didn't use the bathroom for three days, weather was nice so I know it had a good chance to dry.

About the thrid day of using the bathroom for showering, the paint on the ceilings in the bathroom and above the tub started peeling off in pieces. The joint compound has turned sort of powdery on the back of the peeling paint, and is seems to have lost it's bond with the Kilz primer. It sanded out as usual when I put it on, no sense of poor adhesion. The paint is not peeling anywhere else but the ceilings. Never had this happen before. It's peeling both where I patched and where I didn't.

There is no moisture problem behind the ceiling, the only thing i can think of is something to do with the Kilz primer reacting with the joint compound and/or mildecide. Possibly bad Kilz, it was 6 or 8 months old??? Any thoughts, suggestions, etc. would be appreciated.

rws · 06-02-2007, 08:15 PM

The drying time before recoating joint compound is 24 hours.Most pva primers you would need to wait 4 to 8 hours.And those times mean at 70 degrees and 50% relative humidity.

arturjhawk · 06-02-2007, 08:23 PM

Ive had similar problem couple days ago. Ive installed ceiling fan, patched the ceiling around and painted with eggshell. Couple hours later paint on the patched area peeled off. I thought that patching compbound wasnt dry enough but it was. Finally I primed it with Kilz and it worked.

Tmrrptr · 06-02-2007, 08:31 PM

Hey Mike,

I'm not exactly sure, since there's some missing info, but I don't think you needed the PVA over the oil based primer, AND...

You mentioned it was an older res... You can only stack so much paint on a surface !
r

**slickshift** · 06-02-2007, 08:32 PM

What did they wash the ceiling with?

**Teetorbilt** · 06-02-2007, 08:41 PM

Tm is right. There isn't a primer good enough to penetrate 60 yrs. of previous paint.

In a bath that is used, moisture will be absorbed especially into the ceiling. In common apps., I like to see a bath unused for at least a week prior to paint. In your case the old paint may be holding moisture in the substrate.

**ProWallGuy** · 06-02-2007, 09:02 PM

Quit using Kilz unless you are trying to kill a stain. Use an underbody, or a real primer, not a sealer. Stain sealers dry way too fast, which doesn't allow for much penetration of the substrate. Know your products, and use them for the right applications. Kilz had no business being anywhere near that job.

BMAN · 06-02-2007, 09:17 PM

Oil primer over fresh compund = no/no. Also was it kills or was it shellac base? shellac base never for bathroom!

KellyPainting · 06-02-2007, 10:38 PM

When ever there is a presence of water / moisture at all
then never use oil primer. it will just lock in the water and peal the paint.
Latex will let it breath out.

Next ...never use oil base primer over mud (joint compound) not sure if you did? Mud consists of allot of water. As it cures, the water evaporates. This may take up to 24 hours. So what you did (if you did it) was to put water on the ceiling... then you locked it in with an oil base sealant. It will peal every time.

I specialize in ceiling repair... and do allot of it. Other things that might be happening.... (but it is the mud) is the ceiling could be coated with calcimine (spelled wrong?) older ceiling will have that at times and you need to recoat with a calcimine recoater. (which is oil base, so no mud under)
If you want to prime with oil... then prime... then mud then prime the spots with latex primer.

Richard · 06-03-2007, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teetorbilt

In common apps., I like to see a bath unused for at least a week prior to paint.

and a week after, if possible...this is key that many don't even mention to customers

with such moisture issues in this bathroom, you sure cut it close with all those dry times Mike

firemike · 06-03-2007, 12:58 PM

Thanks to everyone for your input, this site is a wealth of experiance and information, I look forward to the posts and it is relaxing after a hard day at work to read the posts and share experiance and suggestions.

Here is further information and answers to the questions:

Quote:

The drying time before recoating joint compound is 24 hours.Most pva primers you would need to wait 4 to 8 hours.And those times mean at 70 degrees and 50% relative humidity.

The actual coats of joint compound were very thin, less than 1/16", and I left a fan circulating the air, when recoated the compound was all white, looked completely dry (all white, no dark or soft spots) Done this the same way many times before with excellent results.

Quote:

I'm not exactly sure, since there's some missing info, but I don't think you needed the PVA over the oil based primer, AND...

You mentioned it was an older res... You can only stack so much paint on a surface !

The PVA went over the joint compound patches and slightly lapped over onto the Kilz. I used Kilz as the first coat as there had been moisture problems during the winter when water droplets had formed on the ceiling near the outside wall, just wanted to prevent any possible bleedthrough and give a good base for everything else. From what I could tell, there was no real appreciable paint layer buildup, no microcracks or loss of integrity between layers.

Quote:

What did they wash the ceiling with?

Diluted bleach and water. rinsed with plain water.

Quote:

Tm is right. There isn't a primer good enough to penetrate 60 yrs. of previous paint.

I wasn't trying to penetrate, just have a good base to repair what was there and seal against possible stain bleedthrough.

Quote:

Quit using Kilz unless you are trying to kill a stain. Use an underbody, or a real primer, not a sealer. Stain sealers dry way too fast, which doesn't allow for much penetration of the substrate. Know your products, and use them for the right applications. Kilz had no business being anywhere near that job.

According to the can it says:

Quote:

KILZ® Original

KILZ Original, interior oil-base formula, is America’s number one selling stainblocking primer/sealer that tackles the toughest stains.

Originally developed to replace pigmented shellac sealers, KILZ Original primer/sealer has a powerful stainblocking formula that handles most interior stains, including water, smoke, tannin, ink, lipstick, pencil, crayon, felt marker, red wine, dark paint and grease. It even seals the odors caused by pets, smoke, and nicotine.

KILZ Original primer/sealer will dry to the touch in 30 minutes and can be recoated or topcoated in one hour with either latex or oil-based paint. It makes an excellent enamel undercoater, leaving the surface well prepared for a smooth, enamel finish.

I took this as being appropriate for what I wanted it for, to block the possibility of water stains from coming through and giving a fresh base to start with. Was I in error?

Quote:

Oil primer over fresh compund = no/no. Also was it kills or was it shellac base? shellac base never for bathroom!

The Kilz (Original) was applied first, before anything else was done. Bathroom had not been used for over a week prior to the cleaning, and it dried with windows open and circulating air for over 2 days before the Kilz was applied. All they did was wipe all teh surfaces down with a damp sponge followed by drying witha towel. They did the same on the walls with no problems.

[quote]I specialize in ceiling repair... and do allot of it. Other things that might be happening.... (but it is the mud) is the ceiling could be coated with calcimine (spelled wrong?) older ceiling will have that at times and you need to recoat with a calcimine recoater. (which is oil base, so no mud under)
If you want to prime with oil... then prime... then mud then prime the spots with latex primer.[/QUOTE]

I did id exactly as you have outlined, and have done it many times before just like this, first time I have ever had this happen, which is what has me puzzled.

Quote:

and a week after, if possible...this is key that many don't even mention to customers with such moisture issues in this bathroom, you sure cut it close with all those dry times

I agree, but they were having company staying at the house, and we left a fan running for the three days, the windows open, the weather was nice, and it had excellent ventilation. Even when they used the shower the windows were open, the exhaust fans was used, yet something happened with the ceiling that in 20+ years I have never had happen before.

That I why I am turning to other pros, it has me and the guys at my paint supplier baffled.

rws · 06-03-2007, 06:13 PM

I still think the problem is the short recoat times,but now we know the wash down wasn't done properly.Bathrooms can have a buildup of residue from cans of air freshener, hair spray,cleaners etc. that you can not see and that can leech thru kilz.Bleach and water will not remove this.

**slickshift** · 06-03-2007, 07:02 PM

I believe it is a combination of things
One thing or the other...maybe things would have worked out OK (maybe not...sometimes the one is enough)

Adhesion is the issue in a bathroom
I realize you were thinking stains, and I can see that
But in reality bathrooms are the most heinous environment for paints adhering...so thats the key

Kilz Original was the wrong primer for this project

I also can't help but think that the substrate was contaminated

The prep was probably not sufficient

It's not just the humidity that makes bathrooms such high failure areas, it's the decades of hair and anti-stinky sprays

It's hard to say for sure without being there
But that's what I think from reading about it

**ProWallGuy** · 06-03-2007, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firemike

KILZ® Original

KILZ Original, interior oil-base formula, is America’s number one selling stainblocking primer/sealer that tackles the toughest stains.

Originally developed to replace pigmented shellac sealers, KILZ Original primer/sealer has a powerful stainblocking formula that handles most interior stains, including water, smoke, tannin, ink, lipstick, pencil, crayon, felt marker, red wine, dark paint and grease. It even seals the odors caused by pets, smoke, and nicotine.

KILZ Original primer/sealer will dry to the touch in 30 minutes and can be recoated or topcoated in one hour with either latex or oil-based paint. It makes an excellent enamel undercoater, leaving the surface well prepared for a smooth, enamel finish.

I wouldn't say you were in error. Zinsser is famous for declaring all their products as UNIVERSAL which is BS. The last line I highlighted in purple is pure BS IMHO.
I highlighted in red where the product label repeats over and over how it is made to block stains. Plus, the green line I highlighted shows it dries waaay too fast to really provide a good basecoat. It needs to penetrate the substrate at least a hair to solidify the surface, and provide a sound, stable surface of its own. Kilz starts drying the minute you apply it, ho way in hell its got time to penetrate.

Sorry if I sounded harsh in my post. It isn't your fault. I get tired of paint manufacturers, stores, rep,s etc. pushing the wrong products for specific application. Hell, HD pushed Kilz as a cure-all primer, then got feedback from the public that they don't like to have to use oil. Its messy and it stinks. Blah! So they put out Kilz2, which is a completely worthless product, again IMHO.

As to your failure, my question would be "after you sanded the patches, how well did you dust off or clean the surface before applying the next step?"

Richard · 06-04-2007, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firemike

That I why I am turning to other pros, it has me and the guys at my paint supplier baffled.

This doesn't mean it's some far fetched problem. It's most likely real simple. I think you need to listen to us in here when we keep saying 'dry time' and 'prep' because not much else causes paint jobs to fail as often as these.

Ever have your sunglasses on your hat and look all over the house for them...then you ask your wife, and she just laughs. Me too.

Brushslingers · 06-04-2007, 10:45 AM

Heh, simple... you said plaster, 40's. You didn't seal the plaster correctly before you patched. I normally spray clear shellac on old plaster before repairing with join compound to keep what you descibed from happening. Problem lies in the plaster itself.. moisture from years and years of no ventilation, I bet that most of the ceiling is powder already... held together by the paint. Kilz, although a decent product for stains, won't do the job.

ModernStyle · 06-04-2007, 10:56 AM

i have never really had this problem, but I have used Peel Stop on ceilings when the popcorn texture was coming down and leaving a chaulky residue under it. I would scrape the texture off, clean with TSP, then apply the Peel Stop before applying a primer, then re-texture and paint. Sometimes I use exterior paint in bathrooms that have little or no ventilation, maybe I am wrong here also but I think it holds up better in those conditions.

Danahy · 06-04-2007, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brushslingers

Heh, simple... you said plaster, 40's. You didn't seal the plaster correctly before you patched. I normally spray clear shellac on old plaster before repairing with join compound to keep what you descibed from happening. Problem lies in the plaster itself.. moisture from years and years of no ventilation, I bet that most of the ceiling is powder already... held together by the paint. Kilz, although a decent product for stains, won't do the job.

Bingo!

all the products stuck to each other, just not the 40's plaster.

1/4 inch drywall.

Tmrrptr · 06-09-2007, 03:52 PM

This is a GREAT science project !

It's been like tossing a pizza up onto the lid, painting to match, and now it won't stick up there...

One thing doesn't change in the paint biz...

Prep
r

boman47k · 09-26-2007, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ModernStyle

i have never really had this problem, but I have used Peel Stop on ceilings when the popcorn texture was coming down and leaving a chaulky residue under it. I would scrape the texture off, clean with TSP, then apply the Peel Stop before applying a primer, then re-texture and paint. Sometimes I use exterior paint in bathrooms that have little or no ventilation, maybe I am wrong here also but I think it holds up better in those conditions.

Glad someone else admits doing that. I did it recently with my bath. Also used oil base primer/sealer as I had removed wallpaper. That was a temporary fix until I got ready to redo my bath. It held up really well. Now I am redoing my bath completely. I thought I would try the oil primer again. After reading these responses, kinda wish I had gone with latex primer. By the way, this is the damnest job I think I have ever done. My hat is off to the guys that gut and redo old baths on a regular basis.