Another Job Lost To A Low Bidder

NAV · 04-24-2009, 02:26 PM

Ok, how are people charging so little??

I just bid a Job. measurements are below. My price was $136,000.00 and the low bidder was $99,500.00 High bidder was $189,000.00.

Material is $30 per gallon and approx. 900 gallons give or take. lift equipment rental is $13,300.00 including delivery and fuel all included in the total costs. plus a 100% bid and performance bond. the job is to be completed in 40 days (no credit for rain days) or there is a $500 per day penalty.

Spec reads - powerwash, hand tool, spot prime (except fences, they are full prime) and paint.

My profit was at $30,000 with a labor cost of approx $65,000.00.

I am a non-union company. the low bidder is union so they are paying prevailing wage. How can they be so low??? On top of that the project went out to bid last year without the chain link fence and the low bidder was $107,000.00. I just cant understand how they are going to get it done and make money.

1) Cooling Tower:
I beams 675 lf
Handrail 5 bar 240 lf
Handrail 2 bar 120 lf
Catwalk 800 sf
Steel catwalk steps 30 total
Gas lines 200 lf
2) Back Courtyard
Handrail spindles 185 lf
Dock Bumpers 106 lf
Canopy bar supports 18 total
I beams and columns 306 lf
Bollards 16 total
Steel man doors 30 total
Bay doors 3 total
6’ round openings 5 total
3) Lentils 358 total
4) Soffit 293x7 = 2,051 ele
5) Black 5’ steel fence 145 lf
6) Black 8’ steel fence 653 lf
7) Black 2’ steel fence 808 lf

8) White handrail 2,998 lf
9) Football stadium I beams 3,685 lf

10) F-stadium bleacher angle iron 1,600 lf
11) Steel Ceiling top stadium 1,600 sf

12) Bleacher Ceiling 4,250 sf
13) Stadium Light Poles 8 total @ approx 80’ ele

14) Tennis court light poles 6 total @ approx 40’ ele
Net poles 12 @ 4’ ele
15) Baseball Light Poles 10 total @ approx 60’ ele

16) Courtyard behind booth
2nd floor steel soffit (115x4) + (115x3) + (115x3)
17) Courtyard by school
2nd floor steel soffit 225x20 = 4,500 sf
I Beams 600 lf
Round colums 30 lf

18) Chain link fence
Backstop 120x24ele = 2,880 + 204sf 3,084 sf
Backstop 50x24ele = 1,200 + 204sf 1,404 sf
Shotput fence 4 @ 200sf 800 sf
Backstop 60x15ele = 900 sf
Backstop 130x26ele 3,380 sf
Dougout (63x8) x4 2,016 sf
Outfield 1 850 x 4 3,400 sf
Outfield 2 1,350x4 5,400 sf
Bleacher fence 720 sf

Total chain link 21,104 sf one side
19) Dougout corrugated ceiling x 4 1,720 sf total

NAV · 04-24-2009, 02:30 PM

more pics

kanadaeh · 04-24-2009, 03:14 PM

My guess would be about 20,000 in change orders and extras. That would bring their profit to about 14,000 instead of your 30,000. Also they may take shortcuts where possibly ie. one coat in hard to see areas, hire cheaper labor, cheaper products, etc. It's frustrating, but it's the nature of the beast.
On another note, whenever I am the low bidder on a good sized project, the first thing I ask myself is "Oh crap, what did I miss?" lol

NAV · 04-24-2009, 03:19 PM

They are union so they cant hire cheap labor. If anything they are paying more for labor. it is all a one coat project other than the primer on bare metal.

I do think they missed a lot. like the 21,000 square feet of chain link fence

no change orders. the speck reads "all previously painted steel and galvanized. all chain link fence." plus some things they listed separately.

Handymanservice · 04-24-2009, 04:11 PM

Is it possible they own their own equipment, so they don't have the $13,000 +/-?
Maybe they have some of the materials needed from previous jobs?
They have a trick that allows them to do chain link cheaper than anyone ever thought of?

I have nothing, they probably missed something or saw it different than you did. If they missed it, they will surely find a way to make it up.
Bidding is the worst thing ever, when you have to compete on price. I know we all basically compete on price, but imagine if price were never the issue, would yours increase? Are you giving a good price to get work or are you pricing the way you would if there was never a budget concern?

When bidding, it would sure be nice if we could all bid the way we would if there was not a budget. Bid for what we really need to prosper as a company (fairly compensated) and then find the right way to sell it at that price.

It sounds like you did a great job with the bid, and someone else did not.

Deicide1 · 04-24-2009, 04:33 PM

The unions around my area will bid low to steal the work from non-union companies and the union will eat the cost just so they can get the job.

WisePainter · 04-24-2009, 04:34 PM

I like your #, let the Union shop worry about where they are going to lose their a$$.

Besides, Union always has "ways" of getting jobs...

vandyandsons · 04-24-2009, 05:41 PM

yeah, they may loose their shirt being the low bidder.

if the job is only spec'd for one coat, and their is a "no extras" clause, i don't see how they can cheat.

i know of a few union shops that are starting to bring in the latino heat and paying them cash.
i know a few others that are paying wage only and screwing their guys on their benefits.
i know a few others that are working their guys 40 hrs/ week and only paying them them for 30.

parhaps it's a union shop where daddy is the estimator/foreman/truck driver/shop guy etc... and momma is the secretary/ financial department etc..and they operate out of their garage at home with bare bones overhead? I know some guys like that too.

any way you look at it, its not every day that the bottom feeder is a union shop.

Handymanservice · 04-24-2009, 06:04 PM

You actually paint the chain link? Seems like a nightmare, I'm no painter though, might be cake for you guys. It just seems like a tremendously wasteful process, how do you account for the coverage on something like that? Isn't 2/3 of the paint lost to overspray? Just guessing.

I don't know if that is a great price or not, but it sure seems like you spent a lot of time working this out. How many hours do you have in this estimate or is it a simple square foot x ***X dollars type rule of thumb?

Good luck, maybe the low bidder won't be able to produce the required bond's or something stupid and you will end up with the job anyway.

Chris Johnson · 04-24-2009, 10:21 PM

I don't always win against the union companies.

WisePainter · 04-24-2009, 11:01 PM

I live in a union state...the one just 5 minutes to the east is not.

nEighter · 04-24-2009, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WisePainter

I live in a union state...the one just 5 minutes to the east is not.

west buddy.. west

WisePainter · 04-25-2009, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nEighter

west buddy.. west

dangit!

west of here.

NAV · 04-27-2009, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Handymanservice

You actually paint the chain link? Seems like a nightmare, I'm no painter though, might be cake for you guys. It just seems like a tremendously wasteful process, how do you account for the coverage on something like that? Isn't 2/3 of the paint lost to overspray? Just guessing.

I don't know if that is a great price or not, but it sure seems like you spent a lot of time working this out. How many hours do you have in this estimate or is it a simple square foot x ***X dollars type rule of thumb?

Good luck, maybe the low bidder won't be able to produce the required bond's or something stupid and you will end up with the job anyway.

Yes, with chain link you are only going to get like 175 square feet per gallon if you spray. give or take - depends on the wind.

I have about 14 hours into the bid - 6 hours of measure and the rest getting pricing and adding it up.

the union company that was the low bidder is not fly by night. they have been around for a wile and are known for doing quality work. i am sure their paperwork will be in order.

they do own some lifts but not all of them that will be needed for a job like this.

When i spoke to their salesman he said his price was $127K still way below where i was at. he told me the owner wanted to be under $100K. he said that they have a bunch of new apprentices that they need to get some experience. In ohio for union painters its still 2 to 1 - two apprentices to one journeyman.

nEighter · 04-27-2009, 12:21 PM

would have been a nice job to have under your belt. You'll get the next one

Aggie67 · 04-27-2009, 01:53 PM

Not sure if it happens everywhere, but in my area the locals have a fund set up that the union companies are eligible for to knock their number down. It's called a target fund. The unionized company will apply for a grant from the target fund, and subtract that amount from their bid, so they end up receiving their bid amount plus the grant for payment.

Interesting use of dues.

SelfContract · 04-27-2009, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aggie67

Not sure if it happens everywhere, but in my area the locals have a fund set up that the union companies are eligible for to knock their number down. It's called a target fund. The unionized company will apply for a grant from the target fund, and subtract that amount from their bid, so they end up receiving their bid amount plus the grant for payment.

Interesting use of dues.

Exactly, so blame on Obama's stimulus game.... to prevent massive union lay-off (after extensive study from GM layoff-bankruptcy deal lately). Uncle Sam grants everything anywhere... just know how to lobby them & when to get$ & how to spend$ that's all.

NAV · 04-27-2009, 04:38 PM

i have never heard of such a thing. I wish i could use grant money to pay my workers.

Midwest D & P · 05-18-2009, 12:54 PM

The unions in my area are bidding everything, big or small, and low. The are desperate for work.

josey wales · 05-18-2009, 04:03 PM

Not sure about Stateside but here in Canada (ontario) When union contractors are bidding against non union they can apply to the hall for a clause in the contract that allows them to lower their wage. For instance union wage here is $32 but often on lare commercial jobs like schools arenas ect the wage can be slashed as low as $18.

04-24-2009, 02:26 PM	#1
NAV View Profile NAV Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (381) Photos (5) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: commercial building restoration Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Cleveland Posts: 381	Another Job Lost To A Low Bidder Ok, how are people charging so little?? I just bid a Job. measurements are below. My price was $136,000.00 and the low bidder was $99,500.00 High bidder was $189,000.00. Material is $30 per gallon and approx. 900 gallons give or take. lift equipment rental is $13,300.00 including delivery and fuel all included in the total costs. plus a 100% bid and performance bond. the job is to be completed in 40 days (no credit for rain days) or there is a $500 per day penalty. Spec reads - powerwash, hand tool, spot prime (except fences, they are full prime) and paint. My profit was at $30,000 with a labor cost of approx $65,000.00. I am a non-union company. the low bidder is union so they are paying prevailing wage. How can they be so low??? On top of that the project went out to bid last year without the chain link fence and the low bidder was $107,000.00. I just cant understand how they are going to get it done and make money. 1) Cooling Tower: I beams 675 lf Handrail 5 bar 240 lf Handrail 2 bar 120 lf Catwalk 800 sf Steel catwalk steps 30 total Gas lines 200 lf 2) Back Courtyard Handrail spindles 185 lf Dock Bumpers 106 lf Canopy bar supports 18 total I beams and columns 306 lf Bollards 16 total Steel man doors 30 total Bay doors 3 total 6’ round openings 5 total 3) Lentils 358 total 4) Soffit 293x7 = 2,051 ele 5) Black 5’ steel fence 145 lf 6) Black 8’ steel fence 653 lf 7) Black 2’ steel fence 808 lf 8) White handrail 2,998 lf 9) Football stadium I beams 3,685 lf 10) F-stadium bleacher angle iron 1,600 lf 11) Steel Ceiling top stadium 1,600 sf 12) Bleacher Ceiling 4,250 sf 13) Stadium Light Poles 8 total @ approx 80’ ele 14) Tennis court light poles 6 total @ approx 40’ ele Net poles 12 @ 4’ ele 15) Baseball Light Poles 10 total @ approx 60’ ele 16) Courtyard behind booth 2nd floor steel soffit (115x4) + (115x3) + (115x3) 17) Courtyard by school 2nd floor steel soffit 225x20 = 4,500 sf I Beams 600 lf Round colums 30 lf 18) Chain link fence Backstop 120x24ele = 2,880 + 204sf 3,084 sf Backstop 50x24ele = 1,200 + 204sf 1,404 sf Shotput fence 4 @ 200sf 800 sf Backstop 60x15ele = 900 sf Backstop 130x26ele 3,380 sf Dougout (63x8) x4 2,016 sf Outfield 1 850 x 4 3,400 sf Outfield 2 1,350x4 5,400 sf Bleacher fence 720 sf Total chain link 21,104 sf one side 19) Dougout corrugated ceiling x 4 1,720 sf total Attached Thumbnails Last edited by NAV; 04-24-2009 at 02:36 PM.

04-24-2009, 02:30 PM	#2
NAV View Profile NAV Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (381) Photos (5) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: commercial building restoration Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Cleveland Posts: 381	Re: Another Job Lost To A Low Bidder more pics Attached Thumbnails

04-24-2009, 03:14 PM	#3
kanadaeh View Profile kanadaeh Member Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (80) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Member Trade: painter Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 80	Re: Another Job Lost To A Low Bidder My guess would be about 20,000 in change orders and extras. That would bring their profit to about 14,000 instead of your 30,000. Also they may take shortcuts where possibly ie. one coat in hard to see areas, hire cheaper labor, cheaper products, etc. It's frustrating, but it's the nature of the beast. On another note, whenever I am the low bidder on a good sized project, the first thing I ask myself is "Oh crap, what did I miss?" lol

04-24-2009, 03:19 PM	#4
NAV View Profile NAV Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (381) Photos (5) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: commercial building restoration Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Cleveland Posts: 381	Re: Another Job Lost To A Low Bidder They are union so they cant hire cheap labor. If anything they are paying more for labor. it is all a one coat project other than the primer on bare metal. I do think they missed a lot. like the 21,000 square feet of chain link fence no change orders. the speck reads "all previously painted steel and galvanized. all chain link fence." plus some things they listed separately.

04-24-2009, 04:11 PM	#5
Handymanservice View Profile Handymanservice Multi-tradesman defender Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (390) Photos (1) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Multi-tradesman defender Trade: Handyman Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tracy, CA Posts: 390	Re: Another Job Lost To A Low Bidder Is it possible they own their own equipment, so they don't have the $13,000 +/-? Maybe they have some of the materials needed from previous jobs? They have a trick that allows them to do chain link cheaper than anyone ever thought of? I have nothing, they probably missed something or saw it different than you did. If they missed it, they will surely find a way to make it up. Bidding is the worst thing ever, when you have to compete on price. I know we all basically compete on price, but imagine if price were never the issue, would yours increase? Are you giving a good price to get work or are you pricing the way you would if there was never a budget concern? When bidding, it would sure be nice if we could all bid the way we would if there was not a budget. Bid for what we really need to prosper as a company (fairly compensated) and then find the right way to sell it at that price. It sounds like you did a great job with the bid, and someone else did not. __________________ "You can shear a sheep every year, but you can only skin him once!" Remember that when dealing with your customers and pricing. http://www.yourhandymansite.com

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04-24-2009, 04:33 PM	#6
Deicide1 View Profile Deicide1 Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (118) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: General Contractor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Syracuse, Ny Posts: 118	Re: Another Job Lost To A Low Bidder The unions around my area will bid low to steal the work from non-union companies and the union will eat the cost just so they can get the job.

04-24-2009, 04:34 PM	#7
WisePainter View Profile WisePainter A bit abrasive. Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,529) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity A bit abrasive. Trade: Painting Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: KC KS/MO Posts: 1,529	Re: Another Job Lost To A Low Bidder I like your #, let the Union shop worry about where they are going to lose their a$$. Besides, Union always has "ways" of getting jobs... __________________ My advice: Hire a real painter to do it.

04-24-2009, 05:41 PM	#8
vandyandsons View Profile vandyandsons vandy Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (266) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity vandy Trade: painting, decorating, wallcovering Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: chicagoland Posts: 266	Re: Another Job Lost To A Low Bidder yeah, they may loose their shirt being the low bidder. if the job is only spec'd for one coat, and their is a "no extras" clause, i don't see how they can cheat. i know of a few union shops that are starting to bring in the latino heat and paying them cash. i know a few others that are paying wage only and screwing their guys on their benefits. i know a few others that are working their guys 40 hrs/ week and only paying them them for 30. parhaps it's a union shop where daddy is the estimator/foreman/truck driver/shop guy etc... and momma is the secretary/ financial department etc..and they operate out of their garage at home with bare bones overhead? I know some guys like that too. any way you look at it, its not every day that the bottom feeder is a union shop.

04-24-2009, 06:04 PM	#9
Handymanservice View Profile Handymanservice Multi-tradesman defender Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (390) Photos (1) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Multi-tradesman defender Trade: Handyman Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tracy, CA Posts: 390	Re: Another Job Lost To A Low Bidder You actually paint the chain link? Seems like a nightmare, I'm no painter though, might be cake for you guys. It just seems like a tremendously wasteful process, how do you account for the coverage on something like that? Isn't 2/3 of the paint lost to overspray? Just guessing. I don't know if that is a great price or not, but it sure seems like you spent a lot of time working this out. How many hours do you have in this estimate or is it a simple square foot x *X dollars type rule of thumb? Good luck, maybe the low bidder won't be able to produce the required bond's or something stupid and you will end up with the job anyway. __________________ "You can shear a sheep every year, but you can only skin him once!"** Remember that when dealing with your customers and pricing. http://www.yourhandymansite.com

04-24-2009, 10:21 PM	#10
Chris Johnson View Profile Chris Johnson I'm a Mac Send Message Follow Blogs (1) Threads (3,259) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (1) View All Activity I'm a Mac Trade: ICF Construction Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hog Town Posts: 3,259	Re: Another Job Lost To A Low Bidder I don't always win against the union companies. __________________ Chris

04-24-2009, 11:01 PM	#11
WisePainter View Profile WisePainter A bit abrasive. Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,529) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity A bit abrasive. Trade: Painting Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: KC KS/MO Posts: 1,529	Re: Another Job Lost To A Low Bidder I live in a union state...the one just 5 minutes to the east is not. __________________ My advice: Hire a real painter to do it.

04-27-2009, 12:21 PM	#15
nEighter View Profile nEighter Smart phone? Scan me! Send Message Follow Blogs (1) Threads (2,118) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Smart phone? Scan me! Trade: Painting/Framing/Drywall Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: tWiliGht zOne Posts: 2,118	Re: Another Job Lost To A Low Bidder would have been a nice job to have under your belt. You'll get the next one

04-27-2009, 01:53 PM	#16
Aggie67 View Profile Aggie67 Structural Engineer Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (513) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Structural Engineer Trade: Mechanical, Structural Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New Jersey Posts: 513	Re: Another Job Lost To A Low Bidder Not sure if it happens everywhere, but in my area the locals have a fund set up that the union companies are eligible for to knock their number down. It's called a target fund. The unionized company will apply for a grant from the target fund, and subtract that amount from their bid, so they end up receiving their bid amount plus the grant for payment. Interesting use of dues. __________________ Follow the day to day life of a professional engineer on Twitter Contractor New Jersey Licensed Structural Engineer

04-27-2009, 04:38 PM	#18
NAV View Profile NAV Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (381) Photos (5) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: commercial building restoration Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Cleveland Posts: 381	Re: Another Job Lost To A Low Bidder i have never heard of such a thing. I wish i could use grant money to pay my workers.

05-18-2009, 12:54 PM	#19
Midwest D & P View Profile Midwest D & P Registered User Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (16) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Registered User Trade: paint and drywall Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 16	Re: Another Job Lost To A Low Bidder The unions in my area are bidding everything, big or small, and low. The are desperate for work.

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05-18-2009, 04:03 PM	#20
josey wales View Profile josey wales Registered User Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (4) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Registered User Trade: journeyman painter Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 4	Re: Another Job Lost To A Low Bidder Not sure about Stateside but here in Canada (ontario) When union contractors are bidding against non union they can apply to the hall for a clause in the contract that allows them to lower their wage. For instance union wage here is $32 but often on lare commercial jobs like schools arenas ect the wage can be slashed as low as $18.