Am I Outrageous?

AAPaint · 02-10-2007, 03:05 PM

I just want you guys to take a look at this proposal and tell me if my pricing is outrageous. Am I way out in left field with this one?

Quote:

·Surface preparation as detailed in this proposal. Our preparation processes leave nothing out. Painting is 90% preparation, 10% paint.
·Door frames puttied, caulked, sanded, wiped with a tack cloth and painted.
·Window frames painted.
·Trim puttied, caulked, sanded, wiped with a tack cloth and painted.
·Baseboards puttied, caulked, sanded, wiped with a tack cloth and painted.
·All necessary materials including but not limited to primers, paints, sanding materials, putties, caulks, tape, plastic, drywall compound, rags, roller "naps", etc.
·All necessary labor to complete entire scope of work outlined in this contract.
·Miscellaneous repairs. We will fix all noticeable minor imperfections in the walls including nail holes and dings or gouges.
·Tarps, poly, drop cloths and coverings. Anything not being painted will be properly protected or masked in a professional manner.
·Previously painted surfaces where the existing coating is not failing: Walls with heavy nicotine build-up, grease, dirt, dust, grime, etc. will be cleaned with a tsp/water or an ammonia/water solution to remove any contaminants and provide a clean surface for the new paint to adhere to. All previously painted walls will be pole sanded with 150 grit sandpaper to de-gloss the surface and ensure good adhesion of our new paint. Pole sanding also removes most “trash” or foreign objects attached to the wall during any previous painting. The walls will then be wiped down or vacuumed to remove any dust from sanding. All nail holes will be filled and any imperfections will be skimmed and sanded. After all patches have been applied and sanded those areas will be primed with an appropriate high quality primer. Two top-coats of the specified paint will be applied for proper color representation, surface coverage, and film thickness.
·All trim will be puttied to fill nail holes and imperfections. Trim will then be sanded to ensure a smooth, clean finish. After sanding is complete all trim will be wiped with a tack cloth to remove any dust, and will then be caulked as needed.
·Trim will be painted with Sherwin Williams Pro Classic Waterborne paint. This is a high quality paint that will provide a beautiful, lasting finish on any trim surfaces. Pro Classic gives the look and durability of an oil based finish in a product that cleans up with water and has less solvents.
·Caulk used will be Sherwin Williams 1100A 55 year siliconized latex caulk.
·Windows and doors will be re-caulked as necessary to prevent weather and insect penetration. Areas of failing caulk will be cut out and removed, not simply caulked over. All interior windows will be re-caulked to ensure a proper seal against interior walls.
·This proposal includes moving large furniture items as needed for painting. Customer is responsible for removing any and all other items from the work area including but not limted to knick-knacks, drapes, wall hangings (posters, pictures, mirrors, etc) and any other items not considered large furniture. Any items left in the work area will be moved at the rate of $50/hour. AA Quality Painting & Pressure Washing LLC will not be liable for damage to items left in the work area or moved by any of our employees.

·Flooring and furniture will be properly protected with CLEAN drop cloths that we reserve for interior use ONLY and wash frequently. We would not think of bringing drop cloths used outside into your home. All trim not to be painted will be properly masked and protected. Cabinets, countertops, etc. will also be fully protected during the painting process.
·As a standard procedure, our company will provide you with a kit that will contain a labeled portion of each paint/color for future touch ups.
·All switch plate and outlet covers will be removed during painting, and re-installed when complete. All switches and outlets will be protected with tape during the entire painting process. No paint will be found on switches, outlets, or their covers.
·All areas will be thoroughly vacuumed once painting is complete and large furniture moved by us will be returned to it’s proper place

Detailed Project Specifications:

Included Warranty Period: 2 Year Guaranteed against defects in the quality of our workmanship.

Bedroom (computer room) Approx. Area: (368 sq.ft.)
Includes the following:
2 coat(s) of SW Promar 200 Interior Latex Satin.
2 ea. 6 panel door and casing - 1 coat(s).
1 coat(s) 4" Baseboard, SW Pro Classic Waterborne Semi-Gloss.

Hall Approx. Area: (272 sq.ft.)
Includes the following:
2 coat(s) of SW Promar 200 Interior Latex Satin.
1 coat(s) 4" Baseboard, SW Pro Classic Waterborne Semi-Gloss.
Comment: Doors are included with adjoining rooms and are not noted as part of the hallway.

Bedroom Approx. Area: (352 sq.ft.)
Includes the following:
2 coat(s) of SW Promar 200 Interior Latex Satin.
2 ea. 6 panel door and casing - 1 coat(s).
1 coat(s) 4" Baseboard, SW Pro Classic Waterborne Semi-Gloss.

Bathroom Approx. Area: (192 sq.ft.)
Includes the following:
2 coat(s) of SW Promar 200 Interior Latex Satin.
1 ea. 6 panel door and casing - 1 coat(s).
1 coat(s) 4" Baseboard, SW Pro Classic Waterborne Semi-Gloss.

Master Bedroom Approx. Area: (584 sq.ft.)
Includes the following:
2 coat(s) of SW Promar 200 Interior Latex Satin.
2 ea. 6 panel door and casing - 1 coat(s).
1 coat(s) 4" Baseboard, SW Pro Classic Waterborne Semi-Gloss.

Master Bathroom Approx. Area: (144 sq.ft.)
Includes the following:
2 coat(s) of SW Promar 200 Interior Latex Satin.
2 ea. 6 panel door and casing - 1 coat(s).
1 coat(s) 4" Baseboard, SW Pro Classic Waterborne Semi-Gloss.

All of the above work to be completed in a professional manner that shall meet or exceed accepted industry standards for the sum of:

SUB TOTAL: $2,544.21
TOTAL: $2,544.21

I just want to know...

ALLIN1 · 02-10-2007, 03:21 PM

I think that is a good quote. I would be in the 2400.00 to 2600.00 range

Humble Abode · 02-10-2007, 03:32 PM

That seams resonable to me. I think I would have bid the same.

Do your customers actually read that scope of work? something tells me they don't.

Workaholic · 02-10-2007, 03:35 PM

that is a hair over a 1.33 a sqft.
Granted when pricing a repaint i normally would'nt go by the sqft.
My bid would of been about 2550.
You know you will always run into people that want their home painted for pennies. I always tell the customer that you can always get someone to do it cheaper and that cheaper does not mean better.

slickshift · 02-10-2007, 03:45 PM

The way you phrase that makes me think that the customer thought it was "outrageous"
Is that the case?

There's H/Os out there that think that should be a $600 job
They'd think that 2.5K was outrageous

And they don't really care about the work involved
They just see paint=X dollars

I have learned this to be true:
If nobody think your price is too high, you are not charging enough

A quick glance and the price does not seem out of line

Well, the statement that painting is 90% prep, that's a little out of line
I know what you mean, and I'm not afraid of a little hyperbole to press a point home, but 90% prep is getting into MADD numbers
I can see that one backfiring

Miniroller · 02-10-2007, 04:38 PM

That actually seems low to me AA; I know that the pricing is different depending on the area but if you are preparing the job as described I would think they are getting a good deal. Maybe they saw the $50 an hour part about moving furniture and the last time they paid a painter it was $15 an hour.

AAPaint · 02-10-2007, 05:01 PM

Thanks guys. It is low. I cut it down about 10% just to see if it made a difference in the customer's decision, and because it was the third project I bid for them in two days. I am waiting on a decision for one of the other projects, but we did not get this or an acid stained patio that I informed him would cost "about 1500, but I'll get you a final price on a proposal" to which he said "if it's around 1500, let's go ahead with that"....my final price on it was $1638. So I began to wonder if it's the interior bid. I could not get to the bottom of the objection (partly my fault but customer was being quick on the phone), I was just told "I won't be able to do the acid stain at this time, but I will call tomorrow about the other project" which is the third one.

It just kills me. I thought we had all three jobs locked up. I also wonder if he didn't understand when I said AROUND 1500. Oh well, I'm going to call him and see if I can find out!

AAPaint · 02-10-2007, 05:14 PM

Oh btw slick....I have never had a problem with that statement being there. I guess I could use it somewhere else besides on a legally binding document though, eh? It's purpose was to get the point across to the customer that they are paying for more than just a slap job.

slickshift · 02-10-2007, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AAPaint

...it was the third project I bid for them in two days...So I began to wonder if it's the interior bid. ...I will call tomorrow about the other project" which is the third one...I thought we had all three jobs locked up.

Sounds like you won't get #3 either
Dollars to doughnuts there's another contractor involved and they are cheaper
They could even be looking at your bids and simply shaving off XX%

I could be wrong but I believe you are being played like a Yard Sale Guitar

Could also be a know-it-all-in-law or someone telling the H/O "that's outrageous" after he tells them how much
Like dealing with a one-legger
You know, everything seems fine 'till she talks to the husband, then it's "too much"

I wouldn't go nuts trying to figure it out
It'll happen again, trust me

Quote:

Originally Posted by AAPaint

Oh well, I'm going to call him and see if I can find out!

That's a good idea
Maybe you'll even get a straight answer

Chris G · 02-10-2007, 05:22 PM

I hate those bids where you wonder "wha happen?". Most of the time, (when I do finally get to the bottom of it), it wasn't about price, but about allocating funds elsewhere, (which can be related to price).

I also wonder about the 90% prep statment. If I was an ass, I could tell you to go ahead with the painting but skip the prep, and I'll pay $254.01. Sorry, just being an ass.

slickshift · 02-10-2007, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AAPaint

It's purpose was to get the point across to the customer that they are paying for more than just a slap job.

Oh yeah, I understand completely
I appreciate it

AAPaint · 02-10-2007, 05:47 PM

I got it.......what I was trying to say (and thanks for pointing this out to me) is that "in painting the final appearance relies 90% on prep" or something along those lines. I think until I figure out a good way to say it I will just leave it out to save myself a headache I never saw coming. Doh!

Brian · 02-10-2007, 05:48 PM

AA,

If you did all 3 projects at once, wouldn't you have some efficiencies that you could pass on to the customer? In other words, while you are waiting for the staining steps to dry, you could be doing some of the other work, and vice versa.

I run into this type of situation frequently. The acid stained patio usually takes several trips, so you wind up with a lot of travel time somewhere else, or down time. That down time could be used to paint their interior.

When I run into this, I offer a discount if we do all of the work at the same time. It creates a win- win and customers usually go for it.

Brian Phillips

Woz the Painter · 02-11-2007, 12:41 AM

It might be a good price in your area for you doing the job.

It might be way low in my area doing the job as a union contractor.

MakDeco · 02-11-2007, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woz the Painter

It might be a good price in your area for you doing the job.

It might be way low in my area doing the job as a union contractor.

Hey Woz what's the going rate for union painters in Chicago now? I was in the union back in the early 90's when I worked for someone. I am now a small contractor (last 14 yrs) in the Southwest burbs and haven't been in the union for a while. I felt they didn't have much to offer a small contractor that only has one or two employees.

tcleve4911 · 02-11-2007, 12:42 PM

CAUTION WARNING "All", "any", "as necessary" type phrases open you up to interpretation. Moving all furniture....Any dust etc....Had a customer make us recaulk windows 3 times once cuz she said she could see "imperfections" in the bead. Just a heads up in contract writing. Good for you in being thorough. Lot's o luck

Joewho · 02-11-2007, 04:18 PM

I don't think nit picking the wording of the document is a real problem.

It's winter, it's slow and there are lots of immi, er, painters out there who will work cheap. They're probably shopping around.

Under the circumstances, I would have made damn sure to bid the patio at 1480.00

You could always call them up and ask them what they thought of your presentation, how you can improve on it, and find out what the real deal is. Maybe drop by while the other painter is doing the work, if you really want to see what's what. 10 to 1 it will be a slouch.

Woz the Painter · 02-12-2007, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MakDeco

Hey Woz what's the going rate for union painters in Chicago now? I was in the union back in the early 90's when I worked for someone. I am now a small contractor (last 14 yrs) in the Southwest burbs and haven't been in the union for a while. I felt they didn't have much to offer a small contractor that only has one or two employees.

The wage packet for a journeyman is aprox. $47.62 per hour, which includes hourly pay, pension and health insurance. Does not include workmans comp...

donb1959 · 02-12-2007, 09:12 AM

AA,
I think that price is very reasonable. In fact if everything on the scope of work is done it may be a little low. Are you always that detailed on all your quotes? I thought I was detailed. Anyway, I think the price is a good one, but I run acroos this all the time, I take the time to write a proper quote, charge what I need to and what I think is a very fair price only to find out that Joe Blow was 1,000.00 cheaper.

AAPaint · 02-12-2007, 01:24 PM

Thanks Don. Yeah, my quotes are always that detailed. I don't leave anything to question. A lot of it is done by my estimating software, the rest are cut and paste pre-made sentences. Like I said above, I did cut the price down slightly just because I wanted the work. I dropped about 10%, but still left some room for a profit. I was hoping to have all three jobs, but hell with it. I'm not going to do it anymore. I am tired of trying to cut a little here and there because I know I'm not a cheap guy just hoping it will help. I know my competition isn't anywhere near as thorough or professional. I'm just going to keep the search going for people who won't balk at my prices.

I lose on price 99% of the time.

02-10-2007, 03:21 PM	#2
ALLIN1 View Profile ALLIN1 Member Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (31) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Member Trade: Home Improvements Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 31	Re: Am I Outrageous? I think that is a good quote. I would be in the 2400.00 to 2600.00 range

02-10-2007, 03:35 PM	#4
Workaholic View Profile Workaholic Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,349) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Painting Contractor Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Huntsville Alabama Posts: 1,349	Re: Am I Outrageous? that is a hair over a 1.33 a sqft. Granted when pricing a repaint i normally would'nt go by the sqft. My bid would of been about 2550. You know you will always run into people that want their home painted for pennies. I always tell the customer that you can always get someone to do it cheaper and that cheaper does not mean better.

02-10-2007, 04:38 PM	#6
Miniroller View Profile Miniroller Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (145) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Painter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Cape Cod, MA Posts: 145	Re: Am I Outrageous? That actually seems low to me AA; I know that the pricing is different depending on the area but if you are preparing the job as described I would think they are getting a good deal. Maybe they saw the $50 an hour part about moving furniture and the last time they paid a painter it was $15 an hour. __________________ yep

02-10-2007, 05:22 PM	#10
Chris G View Profile Chris G Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,773) Photos (0) Reviews (1) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Porch and Deck Builder Join Date: May 2006 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,773	Re: Am I Outrageous? I hate those bids where you wonder "wha happen?". Most of the time, (when I do finally get to the bottom of it), it wasn't about price, but about allocating funds elsewhere, (which can be related to price). I also wonder about the 90% prep statment. If I was an ass, I could tell you to go ahead with the painting but skip the prep, and I'll pay $254.01. Sorry, just being an ass.

02-10-2007, 05:48 PM	#13
Brian View Profile Brian Systems Fanatic Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (415) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Systems Fanatic Trade: Painting Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 415	Re: Am I Outrageous? AA, If you did all 3 projects at once, wouldn't you have some efficiencies that you could pass on to the customer? In other words, while you are waiting for the staining steps to dry, you could be doing some of the other work, and vice versa. I run into this type of situation frequently. The acid stained patio usually takes several trips, so you wind up with a lot of travel time somewhere else, or down time. That down time could be used to paint their interior. When I run into this, I offer a discount if we do all of the work at the same time. It creates a win- win and customers usually go for it. Brian Phillips __________________ Houston Interior Painting Houston Exterior Painting Houston Painting Contractor

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02-10-2007, 03:32 PM	#3
Humble Abode View Profile Humble Abode Painting Contractor Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,176) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Painting Contractor Trade: Painting Contractor Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,176	Re: Am I Outrageous? That seams resonable to me. I think I would have bid the same. Do your customers actually read that scope of work? something tells me they don't. __________________ Just because some of us can read and write and do a little math, that doesn't mean we deserve to conquer the Universe. Kurt Vonnegut, (1922 - 2007) from the Novel 'Hocus Pocus' The NAPP Milwaukee Painting Contractor

02-11-2007, 12:41 AM	#14
Woz the Painter View Profile Woz the Painter Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (708) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Painting Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: NW Suburban Chicago Posts: 708	Re: Am I Outrageous? It might be a good price in your area for you doing the job. It might be way low in my area doing the job as a union contractor.

02-11-2007, 12:42 PM	#16
tcleve4911 View Profile tcleve4911 Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,247) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Remodeling contractor Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,247	Re: Am I Outrageous? CAUTION WARNING "All", "any", "as necessary" type phrases open you up to interpretation. Moving all furniture....Any dust etc....Had a customer make us recaulk windows 3 times once cuz she said she could see "imperfections" in the bead. Just a heads up in contract writing. Good for you in being thorough. Lot's o luck __________________ Back in Maine Dubbin' Around Doin' good stuff ......

02-11-2007, 04:18 PM	#17
Joewho View Profile Joewho Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (845) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Painter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Las Vegas NV Posts: 845	Re: Am I Outrageous? I don't think nit picking the wording of the document is a real problem. It's winter, it's slow and there are lots of immi, er, painters out there who will work cheap. They're probably shopping around. Under the circumstances, I would have made damn sure to bid the patio at 1480.00 You could always call them up and ask them what they thought of your presentation, how you can improve on it, and find out what the real deal is. Maybe drop by while the other painter is doing the work, if you really want to see what's what. 10 to 1 it will be a slouch. Last edited by Joewho; 02-11-2007 at 04:21 PM. Reason: additinal comment

02-12-2007, 09:12 AM	#19
donb1959 View Profile donb1959 Don Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (677) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Don Trade: Paint Contractor Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Winston Salem NC Posts: 677	Re: Am I Outrageous? AA, I think that price is very reasonable. In fact if everything on the scope of work is done it may be a little low. Are you always that detailed on all your quotes? I thought I was detailed. Anyway, I think the price is a good one, but I run acroos this all the time, I take the time to write a proper quote, charge what I need to and what I think is a very fair price only to find out that Joe Blow was 1,000.00 cheaper. __________________ I fish therefore I am http://www.shimmerz.biz

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