18 inch rollers and Tape Question - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

dwbrooks · 12-02-2005, 04:44 PM

Hello,

I've slowed down since the winter weather is here and have picked up a job with another painting contractor to help me stay ahead while I'm slow.

The company does high quility work and works on only high-end homes. Although the crew I'm working on is very inexperianced (they all have less than a yrs worth of painting expericance), there quality is impressive, not speed but quality. They do things differantly then I would but there are a few things that they do use that I'm thinking of using also. Like I said, they are inexperianced as far as yrs in the trade, but the quility is pretty top-notch.

First off they tape everything (baseboard, crown molding, window and door frames etc...) They depend on the tape to protect and arent careful to not get paint on the tape. They get some bleed thru, but seem to be able to clean it up pretty good leaving a nice line. In my opinion I'd cut everything with no tape and not have to spend the time taping, striping tape, and cleaning up bleed thru. What I do wonder is are they saving time by not really having to cut anything in and just depending on the tape. I feel a good painter should be able to cut without needing tape but if they save time and get good results what can I say. What is your opinion? What do you think is faster, a good cutter and no tape or tape with an increase in speed but more cleanup. I guess what is your practice, tape or no tape.

Secondly they use 18 inch rollers. Other than being a pain to load since I hate using pans, they seem to be pretty effective. What is your opinion on 18 rollers.

**slickshift** · 12-02-2005, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwbrooks

What is your opinion? What do you think is faster, a good cutter and no tape or tape with an increase in speed but more cleanup. I guess what is your practice, tape or no tape.

A good cutter and no tape for sure
Tape may give a slight increase in speed, but you must figure in the time spent taping
I really consider it a crutch that shouldn't be needed by a pro painter

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwbrooks

Secondly they use 18 inch rollers. Other than being a pain to load since I hate using pans, they seem to be pretty effective. What is your opinion on 18 rollers.

Love 'em
I tend not to use them often
They're really not ideal for small residential repaints
But I love it when I can use them
I put up 30K sq ft of paint in a new construction commercial with them on one job-didn't want to rent a sprayer lol

dwbrooks · 12-02-2005, 05:26 PM

My thoughts exactly on the tape slickshift, its nothing but a crutch. If I was the boss I'd make these guys learn to cut without tape, but I'm not so I have to bite my tongue.

Thanks for the response. Nice job or the 30K square with a roller!!

Brian · 12-02-2005, 05:38 PM

I'll admit that I don't remember when I last picked up a brush or roller, but my company does about 200 repaints a year. So I get a lot of exposure to various methods and procedures and I have formed a definite opinion on this issue.

Personally, I don't care if they tape or free-hand. My people know the expected results and the budget to accomplish those results. I've seen great painters who insist on taping (which is a waste of time if they can cut in well) and sloppy painters who refuse to tape. I've seen painters who can tape and paint faster than others just paint.

My point is: different strokes for different folks. Get the expected results within the budget. How you do it is a matter of personal abilities, choices, and preferences.

It's fine if you can learn a more efficient way. But to say one is better than the other is a non-issue. Better for whom? If the customer gets the results they expected, it doesn't matter to him. If the work is done within budget, it doesn't matter to the company.

Having said all of that, I do think a skilled painter should be able to cut in straight lines and do so quickly. But if someone can tape and get the same results in the same time, that's fine too.

Brian Phillips

Tom Rohland · 12-02-2005, 05:41 PM

Loose the tape.

If they are talking the talk, they need to walk the walk.

Tom
Ranger Painting

AAPaint · 12-02-2005, 06:51 PM

I think we've touched on this subject before. I'll say this...I don't use tape except in critical/difficult areas which is maybe one corner or something every other job. The tape I use the most is on plastic when I'm masking something, but never for cutting in. I've also worked for a number of paint companies and never seen anyone using tape to cut in, even on million+ homes. Another thing I've never seen is someone who can tape and paint faster than I can cut in. When a 10x10 room with two doors and one window take me about 10-15 mins to cut in, who needs tape. They'll be laying their last peice of tape when I'm cleaning my brush.

For 18" rollers...I love em, but they take a lot of paint to load them up, and like slick said, they're not practical on small repaints where each room is a different color. In those cases, they just waste paint. Also, it's more work, but I can keep up with an 18" roller using a 9"...just gotta hustle more. Also, you don't need a tray for an 18", they sell a pan that holds about 5 gallons of paint, it's a big rectangular bucket, which is what you should use.

ukpaul · 12-02-2005, 09:43 PM

I've never had that much luck with tape anyway...... Some of the painters i've had can't cut-in for toffee and when they have used the tape, there always seem to be areas where the paint bleeds underneath....

prolinefinishes · 12-04-2005, 12:30 PM

18" rollers are nice if you are rolling out new homes with no ceilings being painted.
9" rollers are better IMO just because you have more control over it and it's easier on you to push a 9" all day over an 18".

Far as tape goes, it really depends. I would never go as far as to tape crown mold or some windows, but if the trim being taped is prepped properly you shouldnt get much bleeding. most of the time you get that from not sanding and dusting off what you're going to be taping. And, of course, the tape you choose to use. And then there is the removal part. It's never wise to take it off right after you do it. can get a bit messy. Best to give it time to try, pull it, and wipe any mess up with a rag and a hook knife if need be.

Of course, this really is all dependant upon the guys doing the job, and the kind of job you're doing. some things ya just gotta tape/foil (like large commercial sprays and such) cause there isnt any other way to avoid the mess. But if you have good painters they should be able to cut a straight line. And if they can't, they need to learn before they can call themselves a painter.

Steve

Mike Finley · 12-04-2005, 01:06 PM

What I find interesting about this subject is that the company DW is working with is perhaps finding a solution to the labor issue that a lot of companies are having problems with. While it is great to have a crew of all guys with 20 years of experience this company seems to be trying to find ways to work with what they have to work with, which is guys with not more than 1-2 years experience and using tools at their disposal to allow them to use the available labor and not compromise on quality.

George Z · 12-04-2005, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Finley

What I find interesting about this subject is that the company DW is working with is perhaps finding a solution to the labor issue that a lot of companies are having problems with. While it is great to have a crew of all guys with 20 years of experience this company seems to be trying to find ways to work with what they have to work with, which is guys with not more than 1-2 years experience and using tools at their disposal to allow them to use the available labor and not compromise on quality.

I agree,
Having good work done by people with 1-2 years experience
and usually without the owner doing it, is much better business.
Being able to produce predictable results, using people with the lowest
skill level possible is what the E-myth concept is all about.
We think we are amazing with the brush and some of us are.
Good luck trying to find people to replace us, or work with us.

dwbrooks · 12-04-2005, 07:19 PM

You guys hit the nail on the head and part of what probobly bugged me a little. These guys with little expericance are getting great results without having to use a whole lot of skill. In the end the finished product is what matters.

Now I understand the owners logic. Hire cheaper labor, have them follow a method his figured out that uses less skill and gets the same results. Clever on his part.

kenvest · 12-05-2005, 11:01 AM

the problem is these guys won't learn to cut if all they use is tape.

the problem i have with tape is excessive paint buildup along the taped edge. this is a common problem on cars using multiple colors and would require a good wet sand to taper out and look right.

**slickshift** · 12-05-2005, 12:10 PM

I was thinking the same thing, it's kinda hard to argue with a system that works

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenvest

the problem is these guys won't learn to cut if all they use is tape.

Well, there ya go
They never will learn

Will · 12-05-2005, 04:36 PM

I am one of the lame guys who uses a lot of tape. I also claim to not be a painter, I am a drywall guy who has been forced to take on painting if I wanna keep a lot of jobs. Probably takes me 4x as long to do a job but I don't pass on that cost, just figure I make less because I am learning. I tape almost everything and then try to cut in so I get better at it. Worst case is I have a tiny bit of touch up if I mess up and it happens to bleed. Getting better at it, but I still like drywall

phinsher · 12-05-2005, 11:25 PM

I've been painting for ten years and know how to cut straight lines, but still use tape quite often to simplify, standardize, increase efficiency on larger, higher quality projects. I had been a painter for two years before i saw a door casing that had been taped and painted. It just happened to be my first day on a new job with another painting contractor. It took me most of the day to really comprehend just how straight and perfect those lines were. I almost quit because i knew I'd never paint a line that straight. Then one of the painters told me how they did it. Don't discredit it just because it doesn't seem right. Taping is a skill all its own and can help provide results that really make your customers happy.

**slickshift** · 12-06-2005, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phinsher

I... use tape quite often to simplify, standardize, increase efficiency on larger, higher quality projects.

I'm surprised
It increases efficiency?
How?
(not flaming...just interested in being more efficient...and more profitable)

JAARONC · 12-06-2005, 11:36 AM

I feel it is more efficient using tape especially when your painting your second coat. You only have to tape the wood work once to get a perfect cut in. Every one has their own way of getting the work done, if the customer is happy than I'm happy. Ive never had a client complain about my work.

phinsher · 12-06-2005, 03:23 PM

Ok, someone stated it would take them 15-20 minutes to cut a room in.
I could tape that same room in about 5-10 minutes. Then cut it in in about 10 minutes or have someone who isn't so good at painting straight lines cut it in in around 20 minutes.
His way is a total of 30-40 minutes for 2 coats
My way is 25-3o minutes cutting in myself or 45 minutes total for someone who otherwise couldn't cut in at all.
Sure you have to figure in a $4 roll of tape in each room, but thats a pretty minor isn't it?
This system works best when you set it up as a defined process. Here's mine.
1)I tape a room off while employees are cleaning other areas to be painted.
2) When taping is complete I cut in the ceiling line
3)Employee One cuts in trim while i begin taping another room
4)Employee Two rolls the first room.

We go through pretty large houses in no time this way. What used to be the hard part is now performed by a low cost employee, and the results are better than I've ever seen done by the traditional cut in method.

AAPaint · 12-06-2005, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phinsher

Ok, someone stated it would take them 15-20 minutes to cut a room in.
I could tape that same room in about 5-10 minutes. Then cut it in in about 10 minutes or have someone who isn't so good at painting straight lines cut it in in around 20 minutes.
His way is a total of 30-40 minutes for 2 coats
My way is 25-3o minutes cutting in myself or 45 minutes total for someone who otherwise couldn't cut in at all.
Sure you have to figure in a $4 roll of tape in each room, but thats a pretty minor isn't it?
This system works best when you set it up as a defined process. Here's mine.
1)I tape a room off while employees are cleaning other areas to be painted.
2) When taping is complete I cut in the ceiling line
3)Employee One cuts in trim while i begin taping another room
4)Employee Two rolls the first room.

We go through pretty large houses in no time this way. What used to be the hard part is now performed by a low cost employee, and the results are better than I've ever seen done by the traditional cut in method.

Hold on man. I said 10-15 mins to cut in a 10x10 room with one window and two doors. MY time would be 20-30 mins cuttin it in myself doing two coats, please refer back to the post you mentioned. Yours is "25-3o" as you said. Where are you going any faster?

You say you tape in 5-10 mins, then cut in within 10 mins. That is 15-20 mins to tape and cut. I said 10-15 to cut in without tape....sheesh!

Where you come up with 30-40 mins is beyond me, and then say someone with no experince would do it in 45....are you inferring I'm an amatuer??

phinsher · 12-06-2005, 11:47 PM

AAPaint - Sorry about that

. Looks as though my lack of editing skills has gotten me in trouble. I in no way was inferring you were an ametuer, i don't even know you. I was just saying that including my taping time i could get one of my employees with very little skill to cut that room in in about 45 minutes for two coats with gaurenteed great results. I think its worth it, i'm sure some disagree.