DMC

Has anyone ever heard that you are only allowed to put one wire in each loation on the neutral bar. I have a building inspector that wrote up this, but I never heard this before. Each hole has 1,2,3 wires in each spot and they are all cut too short to move down to the open holes. How can I prove this isn't a code issue?

A.W.Davis

It is a code issue.

I dont have my NEC code book in front of me (it's at home) But I do know for a fact that you cannot share the lugs on a nuetral bus in a subpanel with other nuetrals.

__________________
A.W. Davis Construction Co.
http://www.awdavisconstruction.com/
Your friendly remodeling contractor

L. B. Condulet

Some panels let you put 2 or 3 grounds under one lug but not neutrals. There's no law against taking a wirenut and making the neutrals longer to reach the other holes.

DMC

I went to the manufacturer website and it sounds like the panel is designed for multiple conductors on the neutral lugs, so what's the issue. It certainly wouldn't make sense to twist-lok wires onto each wire to make them longer. Does anyone know the thought behind not allowing multiple conductors on each screw lug.
Homeline PDF file:
Neutral Assemblies
• All lugs suitable for copper or aluminum wire (see “Main Lugs and Main
Circuit Breaker Ratings” on page 20)
• Branch neutral terminals suitable for one #14–#4 AWG copper or one
#12–#4 AWG aluminum wire
• Three #14–1/0 AWG copper or #14–#6 AWG aluminum terminals
provided on 12–42 circuits, 100– 225 A load centers
• Suitable lugs provided on the neutrals for termination of the grounding
conductor
• All unused neutral terminals may be used to terminate bare or green
equipment grounding conductors when the load center is used as
service equipment:
— one or two #14–# 12 AWG copper
— one or two #12–# 10 AWG aluminum

A.W.Davis

In red

__________________
A.W. Davis Construction Co.
http://www.awdavisconstruction.com/
Your friendly remodeling contractor

Speedy Petey

Either the instructions clearly highlighted in red above, or this:

408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations
Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.

...make this a code violation.

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DMC

one line under that say "Three #14–1/0 AWG copper or #14–#6 AWG aluminum"

L. B. Condulet

It makes perfect sense. Come on Dude, you're the guy jamming several neutrals under one screw, sensibility flew out the window long ago! Do like your Uncle Condulet says and add some white wire to those neutrals and screw them into those free holes at the bottom of the bus.

DMC

I'm not the one who wired the house. I'm just the one hired to fix all the code violations. From a reliability standpoint, screwing wires down under a screw, vs using wire twist loks, I think the first is much more dependable. Where were at there are no building codes, just a inspector hired for selling the house. I can cut the wires and twist lok them to satisfy this issue but sounds like a dumb thing to do. Still waiting for someone to tell me why you wouldn't want to screw the wires together under one screw since the neutral bar and screw can easily handle the current from 2 - 3 20A circuits.

Speedy Petey

You obviously don't know the code very well and are looking for someone to agree with you.
Are you an electrician?

Read the instructions again, carefully, it is VERY clear what they are saying. ONE neutral per hole. Up to two ground per hole.

• Branch neutral terminals suitable for one #14–#4 AWG copper or one
#12–#4 AWG aluminum wire"

• All unused neutral terminals may be used to terminate bare or green
equipment grounding conductors when the load center is used as
service equipment:
— one or two #14–# 12 AWG copper
— one or two #12–# 10 AWG aluminum


• Three #14–1/0 AWG copper or #14–#6 AWG aluminum terminals
provided on 12–42 circuits, 100– 225 A load centers

All this is telling you is that three larger holes are provided on the bar. NOT that you can put three conductors in that hole.

Pigtail the wires and place each neutral under it's own screw.

__________________

A.W.Davis

As previously stated by Speedy Peetey via the NEC
408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations
Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.

__________________
A.W. Davis Construction Co.
http://www.awdavisconstruction.com/
Your friendly remodeling contractor

Celtic

The reason WHY? is simple...


SHOCK and/or DEATH


If you shut off only 1 circuit and have the neutral from 2 circuits under that one screw, there is a possibility you (as in your body) could complete the circuitry from neutral to neutral bus.

Here is the commentary from the NECH in regards to Multi wire Branch Circuits (MWBC).

EDIT TO ADD:

If you failed to turn off any CBs, the risk still remains as you (as in your body) could complete the path to the grounded bus.

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goose134

Or think about it this way: you go into the panel to rework something, loosen the screw on the neutral bar and both wires come out. Now you have an open neutral! Not to mention the danger (as stated above) of the same condition occurring on a multi-wire branch circuit.
I think the code, not to mention the manufacturer is VERY clear on this subject.

DMC

No, I'm not an electrician. I do have a background in Electrical engineering. This is a residential 200A Service panel that has the neutral bar bonded to the Ground bar. A total of 60 holes for both neutral and ground and they are intermixed along the 2 bus bars.

1) From a danger standpoint, there's no difference between taking the 2 neutrals and twisting them together and then extending one wire to the neutral bar, than just putting both neutral wires together under one of the netral bar lug screws.

Magnettica

Sure there is. If you were to pigtail the GROUNDED CONDUCTORS, and both of the 120 volt circuits were on the same phase, then the neutral conductor would carry the combined load of both circuits to ground. This installation could overload the grounded (neutral) conductor and start a fire since there's no fused protection of the grounded conductor.

If you're not electrician and are seeking advice, then take our advice.

__________________
Classic Electric LLC
Repairs, Renovations, Rehabilitation

Celtic

...and you would be correct - up until the point where one those connections were to be opened.

....and that is why 408.41 prohibits the practice.


The inspector that wrote up the violation is CORRECT.

Next time you want to play electrician, hire one and hold the flashlight for him.

__________________

Magnettica

For instance.... if you did that, and one of the things on that multiwire branch circuit was a new 65" Sony HDTV.... guess what.... that board just fried-out because the resistance in a series circuit (240 volts) is additive.

So go right ahead and pigtail those neutrals together... then explain to the guy why is tv is broke for the New Years Day college bowl games.


Good luck!

__________________
Classic Electric LLC
Repairs, Renovations, Rehabilitation

DMC

I guess there's a concensus that each neutral needs to be extended in length so that they will reach and enable connection to one wire per hole in the neutral bar. This is all so that if someone loosens a neutral screw that has 2 wires in it, and doesn't turn off the breaker, and has his sony plasma screen on, blah blah blah. If you are reworking the panel I would expect that you turned off the main (yes this panel has one of those). Last posting I meant that extending each wire to reach 2 side by side hole locations was no different than putting both wires together under one screw. Therefore the current would not be on one conductor

thom

DMC, don't try to argue logic with the code. You will lose. The inspectors don't really care what your logic is, the book is book.

On another note, around here we can't splice inside a panel. We would need to add a pull box outside the panel to splice. If it were just one splice the inspector would say you can't do that (He's told me) but let it go. In your case, no way he'd let it go.

L. B. Condulet

This is not a real inspector. It's a real estate inspector.