mdshunk

From time to time, it's desireable to locate a seperate outdoor service disconnect to the left or right of a meter can, due to space constraints. Just the other week, I had to do just this. The disconnect happened to feed a subpanel located on the 2nd floor of the dwelling. In this case, since the disconnect was located to the left of the meter, and the disconnect had little room, I fed the meter's load side conductors into the bottom of the circuit breaker in the disconnect. The subfeed was leaving out of the top of the disconnect can, so these conductors left the top of the breaker in the disconnect. The disconnect or the literature was not marked "line" or "load" in any manner. (square D)

I got red tagged for this installation. When I calmly and casually asked for the code citation on that, I was simply told, "The manufacturers have always intened that you bring the line in the top and the load out the bottom". It wasn't the end of the world to have to re-do this, but it still bothered me. Is this true?

Speedy Petey

The breaker itself I'd have to agree. I can't cite an NEC refrence just yet though. The handle must be down for off we all know, but isn't a breaker line/load specific?

The enclosure, if that is what he meant, is another story. It matters not where you enter and exit with the conduits.

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mdshunk

Nah, he meant the breaker, not the enclosure. The breaker functions in either direction. I know this from using QOU breakers on DIN rail.

CE1

I think that it is just an unwritten standard that you put the load on the top and line at the bottom. I remember being drilled "Line Top and Load Bottom" in my younger years. A good example that I can think of is a fused disconnect switch. The top of the switch is guarded and shielded so that there are not real accessible live parts when the disconnect is in the off position.
The construction of a circuit breaker maybe set up this way also so that the movable switching arm is on the load side. That way there is a minimum of live parts on the line side of the circuit breaker.
I guess that the sure way to find out is to take apart an old circuit breaker.

CE1

I got curious and did open up an old circuit breaker. I was right in that the line side of a circuit breaker has a very minimum of parts that are live when the circuit breaker is in the "off" or "tripped" position. This is a 2 pole 20 amp QO breaker that would not reset. I would think that larger breakers would be made using the same engineering principles.

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mdshunk

That's interesting stuff there, CE

BUT... I still havn't found a code, UL reference, or manufacturer instruction preventing me from doing so unless the breaker is specifially marked "line" and "load", which few are.

CE's areguement doesn't hold water, because we use backfed mains in many styles of panels and for generator setups. That's "backwards from normal", but not a violation.

CE1

MD I do agree with you that there are no reg's that state you need to go "Line top, Load bottom" and it is just a standard operating procedure for the industry. But there is the issue of someone opening the cover sometime later in time and saying WTF when they see "line bottom ,Load top" connections.

mahlere

reverse that

CE1

Yea I saw that. Good thing it isn't code related.

RobertWilber

[opinion]
if the conductor is terminated at lugs and the breaker fed from stabs, then there would be an argument for fixed feed
...or if the breaker was clearly marked line and load
however, if the device is merely mounted in an enclosure and there are lugs built into both ends of the breaker device, as long as the orientation of the device is such that, as prev. stated, up is on, then I can see no reason for the differentiation of feed and load end
The top feed business is because knife switches open down and a bottom feed would leave the knife blades hot when open
Granted, I always feed the top of breaker discos out of habit as a standard, but I don't know that it is a rule...

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_code_quandaries_7/

Sparky Joe

There is a specific code refference that says down has to be off, I'll find it when it's not so late. A guy at worked had a main shutoff on some sort of panel(brand new) where on was down, and I told him it was a violation, the inspector told him "if that's the way it's intended then it's fine"

I've done a lot of small disconnects with underground feeds and load on the ceiling. I cuss the whole time, but there's always a way.

---404.6---
Though every disconnect I've used is much easier to throw off than on, perhaps this is the "mechanical means of holding the switch open"? Nevermind, it's probably the little door latch that doesn't allow it close with the door open?

What is a "double throw disconnect" anway(404.6(B))

jrclen

I once did few jobs in an industrial building that had ITE 208/120 3 phase 400A panels mounted with the main breaker on top. That caused the handle of the main to be down in the on position. I was there 20 years after the place was built, but the inspectors never mentioned it as a problem when they inspected my work. I think the reason they were hung that way on the columns was because they were fed from transformers above them on the column. Saved wire I guess.

macmikeman

Disco down for off is required, but that ain't got squat to do with line / load terminals. If they are marked, then that has to be followed because that marking is the manufacture's included instructions, get it?. If they were not marked then it is not required, and that inspector is doing the inspector dance.

te12c02w

I've been meaning to ask this very question, but I always thought that I could find the answer in print somewhere. Years ago one of my wiremen did the same thing in an outside disconnect. I jumped him about it and he told me he wouldn't change it unless I could show him a code section saying line has to be on top and load on bottom. I was sure I could find something but no deal. There was no line or load marked there either. Well, I had to swallow my pride and apologize but I still managed to talk him into changing the hookup. I guess I was just too obsessive for my own good. I try to reason with my guys now instead of just telling them it's wrong.
By the way, what about putting loadcenters sideways like in some photos in Canadian residences?

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Jim R

mdshunk

That would only be legal in the US if you oriented the main such that 'up' was 'on' and you could only put in one column of breakers, since the other column would be upside down. I actually had to do that once, and me and the inspector had to have a little discussion and sit-down with the code book until I could show him it was legal as long as I didn't have breakers in the other column. You may notice that Square D panels actually have "TOP" embossed in the sheet metal at both ends, such that you can orient it upside down or rightside up, but not sideways.

reveivl

Here's a photo in a Canadian residence (mine). Brand new 200A service panel installed 'sideways'. Note that even if it were installed the other way, the main disco would be left/off:right/on. As it is, it is down/on:up/off.

Curious, anyone know the reasoning behind you guys not being allowed to put them sideways? It's not like the electrons notice. That orientation saved me a whole bunch of messing with framing and all the associated refinishing.

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"Too much is always better than not enough"--J.R. "Bob" Dobbs

mdshunk

I don't know. Up for on and Down for off just seems natural. This was a 1981 NEC code change.

We're actually permitted to put the panel sideways (nobody does, however), but all the breakers must be up for on and down for off. This totally precludes putting breakers in the one column.

Looks like you have a Federal Pioneer panel too. Blech! You can keep that.

fridaymean

Horizontal On/Off would be fine.

Speedy Petey

I would think sideways would be a real pain to frame out. And how do you get in and out of that panel?

I do like that white cover though.

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mdshunk

I notice that the BR panels that have been coming in manufactured homes and modulars lately have snow white panel covers. They're not repainted.... it looks like it came right from the factory that way. It's not even a catalog option. I wish I could get white panel covers, since people have asked for them in the past. I just tell them they come "primered, ready for paint".