Chuck B

1. Does exposed wirng on basement walls have to be in conduit and if so can schedule 40 PVC be used in place of EMT?

2. How far up the wall does the conduit have too extend? (eg into the ceiling/floor joist cavities)

3. What were is this found in the NEC?

Speedy Petey

1) Yes, sort of......and NO. Sch40 is no more protection that NM cable in the eyes of the code.

2) Don't know. Typically yes, up to the joist cavity, or until the cable is out of harms way. Up into the joist cavity looks better.

3) Huh? Can you translate?
Oh I see, "Where is this in the NEC?". Several places. Start in Art. 334.


Chuck, your profile states you are in the electrical trade. Are you a student or just starting out? How long have you been in it?

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mickeyco

What copy (year) of the NEC are you using?

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Some people climb mountains. I take out the trash. But we both do it for the same reason.

JamesNLA

....sniff...sniff..

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wayni

You can use PVC for concealed work, no problem. You can use it for exposed work as well, provided it is not subject to damage and identified as such.

Check out 352.10 and 352.12 in the 2005 NEC.

Personally, I'd use romex.

shaheed

if its an unfinish base ment then yes wires can be exposed
if it a finish base yes you need to put it in any kind of tubing that you like

Celtic

Let's not forget that local amendments can trump the NEC - w/o knowing where the OP is from...the question/s cannot be answered.

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ChillaWatt

Yes, local codes do trump national and local inspectors have different interpretations as well.

1. Does exposed wirng on basement walls have to be in conduit and if so can schedule 40 PVC be used in place of EMT?

Of course it does, if it's not within the wall and rocked over or outta sight. Every basement is different. Is it subjected to water or moisture? If so, I would use PVC. Call up your building dept and ask them. In a panel upgrade, an inspector here made me run additional service ground through basement to a cold water pipe in mc cable or EMT no PVC.

Chilla

Speedy Petey

Again, Sch.40 PVC is no more protection than the NM itself.
For protection purposes Sch.80 must be used, or use metal.

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rch

Can you cite the code that says the raceway protecting wire in a basement cannot be Sched 40 where a raceway is required for protection?

This is a trick question. Exposed Wire on Basement Walls must always be protected, finished or not.

On the basement walls, if it's an unfnished basement, it need only to be sleeved up to the bottom level of the joists. Bear in mnd that if its metal, it needs to be bonded to ground and don't forget the romex clamp at the top where the NM exits that EMT.
BX does not need to be protected on the walls of an unfinished bsmt.

Chilliwatt, ask that inspector to show you the code that allows him to make that demand. Unless the grounding electrode conductor is exposed to physical damage, it does not have to covered or protected as long as it is properly supported the entire length.

Inspectors are given some lattitude in interpreting some things, but writing new code is not in the job description.

Speedy Petey

Sure.

334.15 Exposed Work
In exposed work, except as provided in 300.11(A), cable shall be installed as specified in 334.15(A) through (C).

(A) To Follow Surface Cable shall closely follow the surface of the building finish or of running boards.

(B) Protection from Physical Damage Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC rigid nonmetallic conduit, or other approved means. Where passing through a floor, the cable shall be enclosed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC rigid nonmetallic conduit, or other approved means extending at least 150 mm (6 in.) above the floor.

Can you cite the code that says this?

Trick question, it's the same quote, but it does NOT say anything about basement walls.

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rch

Ahhhh...you are correct sir!.....almost.

The part where it says "other approved means".
You cannot come to an interpretation of any particular code article without considering ALL of the references within that article.

Let's consider the words "Approved Means"
note: please forgive me as I have only the 2002 with me, so if I cite anything that has been changed in later editions, please correct me and I would appreciate the help...it's been awhile for me.

Rigid Non Metallic Conduit (RNC)
352.10 USES PERMITTED
(E) Dry & Damp (this meets any Basement requirement, though in a 1 & 2 Family dwelling, th ebasement would be considered normally dry, and at the very worst, only Damp.
(F) Exposed

352.12
Except where Physical Damage..."

I will concede that exposed wiring must be protected on these walls

352.10 Construction of RNC
For use above ground, "resistant to impact and crushing".
This construt=ction spec meets the criteria for adequate protection against posible physical damage in a dwelling basement.

If you look at the requirements for PROTECTION of NM cable, it calls for RACEWAYS. under DEFINITIONS, the term RACEWAYS includes RNC, with no specification as to schedule.
Since there is no Direct Sunlight nor Soil COntact in the basement, Sched. 80 is not 'mandatory'.

Iin an unfinished basement, unless you use a running board on the wall, it is common and acceptable to 'sleeve' NM cable iwith Sched 40 PVC from wall box to ceiling.

As for the quote regarding 'basement walls' & protection...you are correct. I added the words 'basement walls' for the benfit of the original question which was only dealing with Basement Walls.
However, it is also a TRICK ANSWER! There would not be an acceptable Unfinished Room in the home, other than the basement, garage or Service Equipemt room, that could have open walls!

GSE

Quote: "Since there is no Direct Sunlight nor Soil COntact in the basement, Sched. 80 is not 'mandatory'."

You are an electrical inspector where?

mickeyco

Can't use PVC conduit inside here in Chicagoland, not supposed to use it outside either but everybody does.

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Speedy Petey

Then what is your answer to this:

(B) Protection from Physical Damage
Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC rigid nonmetallic conduit, or other approved means. Where passing through a floor, the cable shall be enclosed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC rigid nonmetallic conduit, or other approved means extending at least 150 mm (6 in.) above the floor.

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Speedy Petey

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jrclen

In my numerous code courses, I've been taught that when the words, protect from physical damage, are used in conjunction with PVC conduit, we are automatically talking about schedule 80. Every time. Speedy provided the specific code reference.

rch

WAS in NY. Stopped 2 years ago to pursue GC & other business ventures.

The answer to your question, Speedy, lies in the words "other approved means" which opens the door to establishing the Sched 40 as acceptable by CODE via the references that I cited. Because ti is taught does not make it so. There is no 'automatic' in the code. That premise is an assumption.

And as best I can figure, there is usually no Direct Sunlight hazard nor Soil Contact or Direct Burial with regard to Basement Walls in a Home...at least most homes that I have been in.

ps: For the purposes of this discussion, I am assuming that Scehd 4o IS LEGAL in that locality, as I do realize that there are superceding codes in any given locality that has chosen to adopt additional restrictions.

rch

As for being taught in code classes, I cannot begin count how many electricians (even the Licensed Ones) think that an outlet or light switch in a clothing closet is not legal by code. This is a widely accepted premise but has no code to support it. It may not be wise under many circumstances, but it has no objection in the code.
The closest you will find to this is under Hazardous Locations, but, alas, a clothes closet is not a hazardous location...and there is very little code to address Home Owner stupidity.

Speedy Petey

I think this is a deep, deeeeeep sea fishing expedition.
Why you are fishing for approval on this is beyond me. It is a trivial issue.

Why would Sch40 be allowed, even in a round about way, when in the same sentence, immediately before it, is a DIRECT and SPECIFIC requirement to use Sch.80?????????

If you want to allow it in your inspections, fine. Cool. I'm OK with that.

This is NOT something I think is worth even discussing further.

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