2008 NEC Proposed Changes

JoeTedesco

http://magazine.iaei.org/magazine/06_d/johnston.html

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mdshunk

The two changes that I see that will effect me on a regular basis are:

All 15 and 20 amp branch 120 volt branch circuits will need AFCI protection. That will put an end to multi-wire branch circuits in dwellings unless I'm installing a CutlerHammer panel.

The conductors of a multiwire branch circuit need a zip-tie around them in the panel. This is stupid, but whatever.

Speedy Petey

If the AFCI thing is passed I will be apalled! That is complete BS!
From the feedback I have been seeing it is not likely to pass. Anyone care to comment?


Marc, when using conduit I ALWAYS bundle my multi-wire circuits. Even if it is the only circuit in a conduit.
I get livid when someone doesn't and you have to go trouble shoot things.
Why are you against this?

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K2

I heard from one of our inspectors that we were going to lose all arc fault requirements. Maybe he was talking on a local level??

mdshunk

I'm not for conduit, but it seems to apply to NM cable also. It's a must for conduit when you have more than two neutrals in a conduit.

EDIT... now that I reread it, I see that it only applies to more than one multi wire circuit in the same conduit. I always did one of two things in that instance; bundle them like the proposal suggests, or run one set in solid and one set in stranded. I normally don't run more than 2 sets of multiwire circuits in a conduit, because you start to bump into derating concerns.

Speedy Petey

A-haaa. I re-read it first to avoid looking dumb. Not that you look dumb Marc. Hell, I can't even see you.

Just to spark a lively debate, you do know you can run up to four sets of multi-wire circuits in a conduit before derating is a concern, don't you?

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mdshunk

3 phase? no. Single phase, yes. I think that "9" is just about the magic number.

mdshunk

From a business standpoint, I do hope the AFCI proposal passes. I'm an AFCI troubleshooting wiz, and that proposal would be fantastic for me. Until the combination type AFCI's come out, I'm not sure what benefit the present generation of AFCI's will provide.

Speedy Petey

Yes. I should have been more clear.

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fridaymean

Whats wrong with conduit?

Since we have to use it, we max out our wire fill. Also, I began bundling multi circuit runs 2 or so years ago. It also helps keep the panel "clean."

mdshunk

I meant to type "it's for conduit", meaning that that the code proposal relates mostly only to conductors in conduit. Sometimes the brain thinks one thing and the fingers type another.

fridaymean

I know exactly what you are talking about.

Sparky Joe

I always keep my "multiwire" circuits consecutive, but i always assumed that's expected in commercial. Although today I pulled 2 circuits not even close to each other in the panel. Project manager had me pull a spare and said "how often do you track a neutral to it's conductors", I just said whatever, but always assumed it to craftmanlike. Justa easy to assume 7 neutrals and they would be neutral 1,3,5, neutral 7,9,11, and so on

Sorry that I'm rambling off topic.

In all I can't stand that electricians who should be the only ones inside a panel have to dumb things down so an average 10 year old could figure it out, tie wrapping wires for identification, what a joke

Sparky Joe

I only see reason to 'tape' your boats at junction boxes, just so adding devices later is easier.
But in your panel all the neutrals go to the same place anyway, what's the point of labeling them.

Speedy Petey

No, not really a joke at all.

Most of my work is repeat work. So many times I am the next ten year old in there.
I want to know which hots go with which neutral in case I have to remove a neutral from the bar for ANY reason.

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Sparky Joe

Just curious what that reason may be?

Speedy Petey

Who knows?
-Move a circuit
-Clean up an old panel
-Service change where you need to keep the shared hots of a multi-wire circuit on different phases because some union worker used two blue wires and didn't group them with their neutral.


You can question it all day. My opinion is to group my multi-wire circuits.

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Sparky Joe

-Move a Circuit- where you gonna move the neutral to? B phase neutral bus?

-Clean up an Old Panel- And this changes where the neutrals go somehow?

And I assume the last one was just joking around, if you did find two blues on one white, I hope you traced it out.

Speedy Petey

I know you thrive on finding fault in the things I write but why this one?
And this is not only about the neutral. But yes, sometimes you have to remove or move a neutral.

I have had issues where a circuit had to be moved in a panel. With the wires not bundled how do you know which phase to put the breaker on?
What if there is no open space on the same phase? How do you know which of the other two phases to put the wire on?

Of course I am not talking about new work. This is in old messy panels where you need to get shyt done. In a new panel this is less of an issue. If the last guy bundled his multi-wire circuits you would have less hassle now. So now in any new work I keep my conductors grouped.

Please keep doing it your way and I'll do it mine.
Thank you.

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Sparky Joe

Finally got an "uncle" out of Pete

You know I've missed seeing you around for so long, I just really gotta let you have it now