To Tie Deck Or Not

POOLMANinCT

to tie the deck... or not
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruskent
Ray i am worried about to much water in the hole poping the pool out of the ground. Normally i will tie the pool into the decking with rebar.

Alot of the leads i have are for houses that are 2 or 3 feet above see level. Some houses are on the bay or lagoons. I know at 2 or 3 feet we will hit water on most of them down on the coast.

Hopefully the first couple i put in the ground are easy ones!


this is a subject of debate in the pool biz, particularly w/ poured cantilever decking.. (i assume that is matts intention, btw whos forms are you going to use?,, st*gmeyers been good to me)

anyway, wheather the pool is fiberglass, concrete, or panel/liner...
i see nothing othe than failure resulting from tying the pool to deck.
sheet plastic is sufficent to seperate the beam from the pour.

as far as traditional coping & deck materials a 1/2 gap is needed, to accomodate the deck floating. the gap is filled w/ approriate material
determined by decking.

ex: poured - backer rod &sikaflex

paver : backer rod & sand

gap material must be pliable..

dirt diggler

yeah .. definitely a no no

POOLMANinCT

& btw there is no such thing as defective tile...

dirt knows what i mean

dirt diggler

or coping ... for that matter

ruskent

Ahhhhhh so should i just ignore the manufactures recommendations?

Or should i pour a 12inx12in concrete bond beam around the pool, with the tied to the pool with rebar. Then the 1/2in joint and the rest of the decking?

POOLMANinCT

matt like i said this is a subject of debate in the pool biz,


pour a beam?? i think we are missing each other here,

take a look at a dixie cup o on of the red 16oz keg cups (dont BS me you know red cups!!!)

they all have a bond beam, without that thicker ring at the top the fold, go ahead and break..
.

dirt diggler

dude ...

POOLMANinCT

matt i gathering you are under the impression a bond beam is for bonding materials...a misnomer in that sense

it like the rim of the red keg cup gives the pool its strength,,,

ruskent

Here is where i am coming from. The manufacture told me this. Under the top lip of the pool is a closed box reinforcement. They told me to drill holes into it, bend rebar, stick the rebar into the holes and tie it into the rebar on the concrete deck.

If i am doing pavers around the pool, i would just run the rebar 12in out and pour a 12in x 12in beam around the pool. The Bullnose coping would sit half on the pool lip half on the concrete beam.

This is what they told me.

dirt diggler

Matt

PLEASE DO NOT FOLLOW THOSE INSTRUCTIONS

that could work down in the south (Texas, Florida) --- but you are asking for TROUBLE doing that in the North (new jersey, right?)
it is a topic of debate (as Ray says) for pool guys & concrete decking guys



your manufacturers are not pool builders. they are helpful to some degree - (especially the fiberglass ones --- the vinyl manufacturers will tell you "sorry, you're on your own" pretty quick)

but that is not something *good* to do.

if you're doing pavers - backfill and do your sub-base prep as usual

(21-A, sand, etc)

POOLMANinCT

matt thanks for clearing that up. you/they are correct. your elaboration, leads me to believe you are not tying the deck to the pool. you are actually pouring/tieing a COLLAR to accommodate coping larger than the pool beam. outside of coping you can pour/pave, w/ expansion joint to absorb deck float.

look at my pic w/ 16" bluestone coping, I poured a collar & tied it to the 5" beam..

I agree w/ you vendor.

btw the stone coping pool
is 32 yrs old, did renovation last summer

ray

dirt diggler

if the decking is tied to the beam ---

it will heave and damage the beam

POOLMANinCT

i gather matt is mistakenly refering to a collar as bond beam,

with that in mind, i still think hes fine,, how bout you dirt?




5" beam on fiberglass pane (liner pool), i poured a collar to foot the 16" coping, not rebarred to panel but lathe is tacked to the 5" fiberglass panel beam, collar extends 1ft from panel beam, collar is 1 ft thick, collar has #3 bar in it & "7 " irons (7 irons are #3, bent in the bumber of truck)


looks like this thread has strayed to securing masonry coping to a fiberglass panel..

initially started w/ matts concern of hydrostatic pressure & using the decking to secure the pool in place...
matt h2o weight, proper site work grading are the only thing to keep them pinned in high water...

i was wondering, is the water you are going to hit by the shore salt water? if so salts destructive reaction to concrete may be a good selling hook for you... but then again the homes foundations are crete...

well i hope you have picked up some clarification or peace of mind

ray

dirt diggler

k ... lemme get somethign to eat and ill read through this whole thread again - as Nick says - im not often focused


brb

dirt diggler

yes - if he's going to pour an apron that is flush with the top of the "bond beam" of the fiberglass for the purposes of a base to install coping ..

then yes - that is fine ...


but punching a hole through the beam of the shell and inserting rebar and connecting that to a concrete apron, collar, etc ---that is bad



like i said - manufacturers are not builders. I will say - in fiber vs. vinyl --- the fiberglass manu.'s are 10x more willing to help and give guidance on a project ... but they are there to sell the installer the shell.


but that's the challenge --- every project comes with it's own site-specific "obstacles" (for lack of better words)





my bottom line advice --- walk before you run. Don't try to build an NESPA award winner the first couple times.

Make it nice ---- but when you're getting out of your box ... (and I have many times) at least realize when that point is ... and after that, it's pure judgement call

dirt diggler

honestly - i'd look for my first install to be a shell and a concrete deck - hell make it a cantilever so you're not even messing with the coping issue yet


if i were taking care of the entire "outdoor living" environment (i.e. landscape, hardscapes, fencing, pool, pool house)

and I ran into a pool that was an "advanced" design - or anything out of the "standard" and "ordinary"

i'd sub the pool out and wait till I got an easier one to pop my cherry on



that's what someone older would say to me ... i don't always practice what i preach


but that's a "conservative" way to look at it


it's a pure judgement call & varies with your tolerance of risk

ruskent

Yea i am hoping for the first one to be a easy one. It all depends on what i acctually sign.

My dealer installs the pools factory direct in san antonio. They are are also austrialians at the place. What works in texas and austriallia proably won't work where i am.

What i am going to do is have them give me phone numbers of other dealers who have to deal with freze thaw issues like me and see what they say.

Now how you you guys handle elevate spas and raised bond beams in my area?

In tx for the hot tubs they pour concrete and leave a openning for the middle of the spa. Then out of treated lumber they build a frame for the spa. Attaching the wood to the concrete. Then they put hardie board over the wood, then install whatever the final finish is.


For raised bond beams, a couple masons said i could get away with just pouring about 12-18in of highly reinforced concrete and building off that. Does that sound suitable? I can't see how i could get a standard footing 42in down right next to the pool.

Whatever advice you could give i'd appreicate it.


I'm excited to do my first one. I know it will most likely take alot longer then it should, but speed will come with time.

Matt

dirt diggler

they're not hot tubs - they're "spas"

(there is a difference b/n both)


again - you're getting ahead of things


instead of wondering how to do this or that


you need to be focusing on how to install the pools

how to size a pump
methods for controlling groundwater
how to prep your base
how to level the shell
how to set equipment
water supply
how to make a sump system
plan for what to do with dirt you excavate?? HO's gonna wanna know
what is a bond beam
what is a return
what is a skimmer
do your pools have main drains?? (some fiber don't)


what if your base is wrong ... and the crane and the shell are there
what is your plan as far as backfill and water (equalization)
how to inspect the shell during installation
how will you determine final elevations
are you pulling permits
will you install fences
what local inspections will you have?
how many amps do you need
how to size a filter
how to bed pipe
how to prevent the shell from warping during installation
how to fix a shell that has warped during installation




these things are basic. maybe you already have a plan for some of these issues/scenarios


but you do not know a bond beam from a hot tub --- and that is the kind of basic things that you NEED to get a grasp on


take it slow ... you'll get it .... but don't f**k it all up by getting to complicated on the first ones. know what i mean?

ruskent

Now i do not have awnsers for everything. I know there will be a learning curve. I know the first couple will take ALOT longer then they should.

I never do things i am not sure of. I know one bad pool can put me out of business at this stage of the game. Thats why i am going to take my time with everything i do and ask a ton of questions.

I am waiting for my NESPA member to be approved. As soon as i become a member i am planning on going to every event they have. Network with as many people as i can and learn as much as i can.

With my construction background i do not think i am trying to do something that is so far out of reach. I am making sure that i use good subs that have experience with pools. I have a excavator that i will use that just digs pools. He knows how to deal with different water issues. I have a electrican that does 50 pools a year, all high end with automated controls, etc. My plumber knows a ton about heaters. I am surrounding myself with people with a years of experience that will help help me with my short comings.


I do appreicate your honesty though.


I will do as mny simple ones as i can before i do a complicated on. I looked at a complicated one today, but the guy just needs everything finished by august 1st, so i have several months to get my feet wet on standard pools.
Matt

POOLMANinCT

wow gunning for the head dirt