Older pool - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Shamrock · 11-28-2007, 03:51 PM

One of my long time customers is having some issues with their pool. Pool is roughly 15 to 20 years old (was there when they bought house several years ago). Concrete bottom with fiberglass panels...regular pool concrete coping stones along top edge. The panels having some sort of mechanical attachment along the top edge which are looking to be in the last stages of life. Several have failed which allows the panels to pull away from whatever backing is used with this type of pool (pulled away about 1/8 of an inch or so but an obvious failure that looks to get worse). I spoke with a couple pool contractors and their solution is a complete tear out and re-build. Unfortunately the high costs of this solution is out of reach for the time being with my customers. A custom liner was suggested by one pool guy but this certainly doesn't address the issue of the failed panel attachments (which in my eye's is a serious matter). As a layman regarding pools, is there an 'after the fact' type of attachment hardware that can correct the failed fasteners? Not looking for a long term solution but something that can safely get these people down the road another few years while they consider the options of full replacement or...

dirt diggler · 11-28-2007, 06:31 PM

i know exactly the type of construction "method" (for lack of better words) you're talking about

I'd be an advocate of the tear out & rebuild ... I have to admit though ... more out of financial motivation

I might be misunderstanding something (no pics) ...

but that "pull away" or gap you describe ... sure that isn't just the decking (assuming there is decking

to me, that type of construction might as well be the way the Ancient Egpytians built 'em. So I'm not familiar with the specs on that particular type of construction. I've always assumed they were installed in a similar system to vinyl pools

but - if I saw a picture of what was going on - i might be able to give some more insight off of what i do know

for what it's worth - my god - those things (the fiberglass walls/concrete bottom) look HIDEOUS

i do know this ...

even any kind of temporary ("just enough to get me through until June of 2010" kinda deal) fix is going to still be EXPENSIVE.

Because to do any type of repair or replacement to a panel - there will be a lot of demo work - and still a tough repair after that

thom · 11-28-2007, 07:52 PM

Yea, what dirt said, and remember, whenever you start tearing out anything that is deteriorated you will find that 1) what you can't see is worse than what you can see, 2) it's worse than you expected, 3) the way you intended to fix it won't work 4) the customer believes it should last forever and that you guarantee it forever (double this if the customer is your friend, triple this if the customer is a relative) 5) the repair likely won't work and now you're in the middle of it, 6) whatever the fastener is attached to that you can't see will be in as bad or worse shape than the fastener 7) helping someone save money will always cost you money.

Shamrock · 11-29-2007, 05:41 AM

I'll get some pictures up this evening (working there today). Unfortunately they're not in the financial position at this time to properly address the issue so we're stuck with either finding a temporary solution or ignoring the problem all together....not ideal but it is what it is. There's no decking problems at this time. The pull away (as pictures will show when I post them) is strictly confined to the top edge of the fiberglass panels directly beneath the pool side lower edge of the coping stones (concrete). 2 panels have pulled away slightly...the other 10 panels show no failure except for the obvious signs of corroded exposed fasteners (they are counter sunk into the top edge of the panels). I have no financial motivations on this one...just hoping to find something to keep them going until they are able to take care of the problem properly.

Shamrock · 11-29-2007, 01:31 PM

Ok...heres the pic's. Probing behind the panel exposes a concrete pour that shows to go down at least 12 inches (no idea whats below that but by tapping on the panel I get the same solid sound all the way to the base...except for the areas that have formed a small gap due to fastener failure). Doesn't make sense to me that they'd do a pour yet then cover with these ugly panels so it's seems doubtful that these panels have a solid concrete backing all the way down (but then I'm not a pool guy so I really have no idea...something is obviously retaining the fill below the pool deck). Closer inspection suggests that it may be safe to assume that these panels will not be a major problem and last until the homeowners are able to financially fix the problem correctly (they estimate 4 or 5 years). Water intrusion could become a major if it hasn't already.

nadtwins · 11-29-2007, 05:09 PM

There are a couple of different fiberglass wall cement bottom pools. there are those which consist of fiberglass panels bolted together and others that are one flexible fiberglass panel (wall) and a concrete floor. I don't see any seams in your pictures, I also don't see a cap which is usually associated with the "uniwalls" Which type are you working on?

Shamrock · 11-29-2007, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nadtwins

There are a couple of different fiberglass wall cement bottom pools. there are those which consist of fiberglass panels bolted together and others that are one flexible fiberglass panel (wall) and a concrete floor. I don't see any seams in your pictures, I also don't see a cap which is usually associated with the "uniwalls" Which type are you working on?

The panels are 10 feet wide with some sort of flexible seam between them...sort of like a rubber gasket (also reminants of silicone over the seams which may or may not have been a part of the normal construction). Unfortunately I'm not familiar with how you defind cap. My first thought is that you mean the coping stones but I doubt I'm correct on assuming that. The top edge of the panels basically sits flush under the coping stones with no edging or gasket. Apparently a seal was obtained between coping and panel thru the use of silicone or some pool related product...most of the top edge seems to be sealed with the concrete mix used to attach the coping and maybe the silicone was added later as cracks appeared. And just to address the issue if it comes up...this isn't a profit motivated topic for me. These are simply some really nice people who have been wonderful customers and my only hope is to at least be able to give them some sound advice.

dirt diggler · 11-29-2007, 06:39 PM

sham ... check PM

POOLMANinCT · 11-29-2007, 06:53 PM

thats steel bleed from coping lathe.

1/8th isnt that big of adeal in a pool that age.

id point the finger at surrounding drainage & worst case snapped a frames.
hard to see but the decking appears to be the culprit.

DEMO the pool or live with it, fiberglass panels wont survive a "turnbuckle on an a frame."

ray

nadtwins · 11-29-2007, 09:54 PM

I built one of thees type of pools way back in the early 80's. It is
A known system of construction which comprises laying steel reinforced high strength concrete in the bottom of a pool up to and encasing the bottom of suspended fiberglass panels. This method of construction however does not provide proper lateral support for the fiberglass side panels. The result of this lack of support is warping and deflection of the panels during back filling operations and displacement of the pool sides by frost and ground movements.

Most pools are also provided with a coping or walkway extending about the periphery of the pool. Frost and ground movements can damage or displace this coping or walkway which may or may not be connected to the sides of the pool.

A common method employed to combat frost and ground movement of the coping or walkways is to tie the coping or walkway into a plastic or metal fastening member or trim molding, slip fitted down onto the top edge of the pool panels. The disadvantages of this, however, are that frost heaving of the back fill material can lift the coping clear off the panel or tear the panel. If the panel then becomes deflected the coping will not drop back into place when the ground settles. Furthermore, settlement of back filled ground under the coping or walk causes the coping or walk to settle and places a severe and damaging strain on both the panel edge and the coping or walkway.
To build a good looking rectangular or straight sided pool with such panels is very difficult unless the panel manufacturer has embedded iron angle or other reinforcing members into the backside of the panel.
I know that the manufacturer of the pool I built is no longer in business, that means no gaskets or panels are available. You would have to fabricate any parts you would need to replace.
By the way I couldn't tell by the pictures if there is any water in the pool. to prevent further damage there should be water in the pool.

dirt diggler · 11-29-2007, 10:14 PM

nad - was this type of install some kinda trend in the 70s/80s??? background story???

always been curious. more like morbid curiosity ...

Shamrock · 11-30-2007, 04:45 AM

Thanks everyone. No...theres no water in the pool. Homeowners drained it a couple weeks ago as they were concerned about the condition of the walls (no idea if draining was suggested or the HO just felt it was best). I know it's the first time it's been empty since they bought the house (about 3 years ago). As to straight panels...there's barely a straight line anywhere in this pool. Not sure if that was just the nature of the beast or poor craftsmanship (I'd guess the later). Bottom pour and finish is very rough and wavy..again, could just be the nature of the beast. Thanks again for all the insight. I'll relay the information and let the HO's take it from there (I'm not qualified to make a recommendation one way or the other).

Poolman · 11-30-2007, 06:28 AM

Better get water in the pool, pronto.

They are not designed to withstand loads pushing laterally from the outside.
The correct solution is a tear out and replacement.

That said...they have lived with it for 3 years. Has there been any visible change/deterioration in that time?
If not continue to live with it until they can do it right.

Also I agree ground water is most likely having an impact on the pool. Is the water table high in the outer banks?
The plus is, it appears that the gap is above the waterline at the coping...fill it and run it.
Good Luck.

Shamrock · 11-30-2007, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poolman

Better get water in the pool, pronto.

They are not designed to withstand loads pushing laterally from the outside.
The correct solution is a tear out and replacement.

That said...they have lived with it for 3 years. Has there been any visible change/deterioration in that time?
If not continue to live with it until they can do it right.

Also I agree ground water is most likely having an impact on the pool. Is the water table high in the outer banks?
The plus is, it appears that the gap is above the waterline at the coping...fill it and run it.
Good Luck.

I told them this morning to fill the pool. They live on higher ground so the water table is not a problem and they actually got pretty good drainage (plus no frost heave to contend with). The gap is above the regular water level in the pool but I would imagine it still gets it's share of water back behind the questionable panels (no idea how big an issue that is...or was). Been no change in the pool as far as they've noticed...just the gaps which they think were probably there when they bought the place. The concrete deck surrounding the pool and the coping all appear to be sound....actually a surprising good pool deck with very little cracks. Thanks again!!

POOLMANinCT · 12-02-2007, 12:08 AM

..... don't use "hill-top" location to speculate on ground water..... I've had my share of suprises.

Shamrock · 12-02-2007, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by POOLMANinCT

..... don't use "hill-top" location to speculate on ground water..... I've had my share of suprises.

Really...? Wouldn't water naturally seek it's own level? Not familiar with having to deal with those issues so I'm more curious than anything else. Being on a sand island our water table is pretty consistant...or so it would seem. The pool guys here have to keep pumps going when doing a new pool but as soon as they get a few feet above average island grade (which is 4 feet above water table), they no longer need that equipment. Every now and then you hear of somebody who drained their pool and the damn thing floated out of it's hole (never seen this). Hard to imagine a 'hilltop' location having a water table issue. Is there some logical reason for this occurring or is it just one of those freaks of nature that happen?

dirt diggler · 12-02-2007, 02:12 PM

Sham - rainwater ...

anyways, like these guys said - have em fill the pool back up. It's a serious risk anytime you do drain one ... so much it requires a "no fault" clause in a reno contract

the risks sometimes are not even related to hydrostatic pressure

BTW

why is it that HOs nearly trip over themselves to want to drain the pool if there's a problem

"Filter's bad ... let's drain the pool"
"Oh, algae ... let's drain the pool"
"The pump is loud ... let's drain the pool"
"There's cracks in the deck ... let's drain the pool"
"The cover is torn ... let's drain the pool"

nadtwins · 12-08-2007, 02:26 AM

Dirt,
I only built one pool like this i think the idea was to give the consumer a choice other than vinyl and gunite. most vinyl pools back then were ether rectangles or El's. The fiberglass wall allowed for different shapes. Now a days you can do almost as much with vinyl as you can do with gunite.

GunitePoolGuy · 12-20-2007, 10:03 PM

It looks like they could live with it, but we have shot concrete walls up against the fiberglass, plaster and paint with no problems. You would have to rip out the coping and replace as well.

Shamrock · 01-07-2008, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirt diggler

BTW

why is it that HOs nearly trip over themselves to want to drain the pool if there's a problem

"Filter's bad ... let's drain the pool"
"Oh, algae ... let's drain the pool"
"The pump is loud ... let's drain the pool"
"There's cracks in the deck ... let's drain the pool"
"The cover is torn ... let's drain the pool"

They originally drained the pool to re-paint the bottom. I came by for some interior related home improvements, saw the issues with the top edge of the panels and suggested they get some pro's in to take a close look at those issues. Unfortunately the repair costs were just plain out of reach for the time being. They did re-fill pool after I strongly suggested it was highly recommended by you guys.