Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method

 
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Old 02-13-2011, 06:34 PM   #1
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Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


I have a flooring contractor that said he isn't going to do the standard hot mop pan I am used to using.
He is going to use one of the US Custom roll on products. He has given me the link to the product.
Says it can be used in leu of hot mop or membranes.
Am I missing something ?
The appears to be pretty easy.
How come none of the professionals i have talked to use this stuff.
Most have never heard of this method.
I have asked the building dept. to weigh in.
Please comment on your experiances with this product.
Advantages, disadvantages, etc.


thx.
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Old 02-13-2011, 07:00 PM   #2
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


I am posting this from my phone and I can't see a location for you, but I bet you are in California!! Contractor Talk was the first time I had seen this method and I could not believe that's how it gets done in your neck of the woods. I can't give you any feedback on customs stuff, never used it, but I can tell you to look at Schluter kerdi (sheet membrane) or laticrete hydroban (liquid).

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Old 02-13-2011, 08:21 PM   #3
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


Custom's product is Redgard Liquid Waterproofing. They say it can be used for a shower pan but I know of no one that will use it for that purpose. Too many possibilities for error in my opinion. The product is also vapor transmissive and that's a scary thing also. It would be very difficult to reach the required mil-thickness painting it on time after time after time. Then crawling around on it to continue the tile is something to think about. Under foot it can be damaged very easily in my experience.
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Old 02-13-2011, 08:52 PM   #4
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


I have heard rumblings of failures with Red Guard in shower pan construction when a fabric reinforcement has not been used. I would make sure an approved fabric was used to reinforce the corners.

Mapei has a line of corners for their Aqua Defense and HPG products.

Laticrete has the same for two of their liquid waterproofing lines.

As far as Red Guard allowing vapour transmission this is true but I believe when compared to Kerdi it preforms better. Insure you apply it to the proper thickness and use a film guage to insure you do so.
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:29 PM   #5
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


There is a very interesting link at JBforums about redguard and the fact that it "blushes" /re-emulsifys up to the first 3 months after installation check it here.

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...ad.php?t=58638
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:46 PM   #6
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


Thx. guys, Jarvis, yes this is So. Ca. and this is not the standard procedure.
This guy got between me and the owner, I am a G.C. just running the job. Basically I feel that the home owners went with this guy and believe what he says to some extent. He is the son n law of their next door neighbor and they promised said neighbor they would give his son or son n law a shot. I think they feel somewhat obligated.
I disagree with this method completely that's why I have told him to get city approval as they are not familar with this stuff either.
Redguards site says it rated for a pan liner.
Stay tuned.
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Old 02-14-2011, 10:02 PM   #7
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Cline View Post
Then crawling around on it to continue the tile is something to think about. Under foot it can be damaged very easily in my experience.
Then put in the pan first. Matter some folks spec that as the water running down wall won't fall on a joint. But redgard on clothing does look sort of dorky. I had a some like that so now I use aquadefense and wear my hunting clothes that day.
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Old 02-14-2011, 10:04 PM   #8
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


Quote:
Originally Posted by srfconstruction View Post
This guy got between me and the owner, I am a G.C. just running the job.
can you guys even do other that hotmopping by code?
It'd be interesting to know.
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Old 02-14-2011, 10:53 PM   #9
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


If we hot mop no need to do anything over it. That was the point. We hot mop here end of story.
Turns this sub is from Az. and that is what they do.
He has assured me that there will be no leaks.
Our building dept. requires to fill with wate for min 24 hrs. and mark.
I am fine with that.
It is a recognized shower pan sealer, it's just not the way we do it in Cali.
I will give him his shot, he know my tolerances, and the owner hired him.
I have done all I can and I think it will be fine.
He just needs to understand no Generals out here would have it on their job.
I told him so, if he intends to do business out here and stays with his method, he will have a hard time getting any generals to hire him. As for homeowners they don't know what the norm is.
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Old 03-01-2011, 06:27 AM   #10
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


I am new to this forum and it looks like a great place to learn and share information. With regard to any type of liquid roll on membrane----DO NOT USE IT! A simple law of physics will tell you that the plywood surface it is painted on will eventually cause it to fail. Reason--plywood expands and contracts with temperature variations which in turn causes the painted on membrane to expand and contract with it thereby causing the membrane to fail. A rubber liner in turn stays serarate from the plywood and does not expand and contract with the plywood which in turn creates a lifetime barrier.

Do you want the job to last more than 3 to 4 years or a lifetime? When the failure occurs, and it will, will there still be a warranty on the work?? I'm sure not. Also make sure he uses a new drain that has weep holes in it.

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Old 03-01-2011, 06:53 AM   #11
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


Tony--the liquid membrane is painted onto the walls and sloped pan,not the plywood under the pan.--Mike--
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:34 AM   #12
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


I have ripped out to many of these due to failure. Sorry.
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:46 AM   #13
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


Quote:
I have ripped out to many of these due to failure. Sorry.
Don't be sorry - just tell us exactly how many you have ripped out so far, tell us exactly how many.
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Old 03-01-2011, 09:43 AM   #14
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonykarns
I have ripped out to many of these due to failure. Sorry.
You've ripped out "many" showers that had a liquid membrane applied to the plywood subfloor????

Uhmmm, no you haven't
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:12 AM   #15
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


A shower liner over Plywood you describe is the worst way to build a shower. The liner should never be installed over plywood unless it is pre-sloped to the drain.

Anyone building a shower with liquid membrane over plywood is not really trained up in the field and does not understand how to use it.

Here is a picture of a flood test which is on day two as we speak. You will not be ripping out this shower any time soon.


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Old 03-01-2011, 10:18 AM   #16
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Cline View Post
...The product is also vapor transmissive and that's a scary thing also....
Bud I thought that Red Guard actually preformed the best of the liquid membranes and even better than Kerdi in Vapour Perm testing...

I'm sure I saw this stat on another thread.

If I where to use a liquid as a linear I would be setting it into the fleece and giving in a good 72 hours to fully cure. A low speed fan can aid the drying time but a slow cure would be best.

If a back up is needed a waterproof trowel on mortar could give you extra piece of mind.

Like you I prefer the topical membranes (expect I use Nobel and not Kerdi) and like the the Nobel TS product the best - this way I can use my modified thinsets with no warranty issues to loose sleep over.



Do you think Schluter will every change there stand on this point? Dale from Schluter's head office still hasn't gotten back to me on this point...
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Old 03-04-2011, 04:15 PM   #17
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


LATICRETE hydroban is the BOMB.............i built a small box out of plywood and hydrobanned it and it does not leak ...PERIOD
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Old 03-04-2011, 04:40 PM   #18
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


I have to agree that Hydroban looks and feels and applies and acts different than Redgard. I've only used Hydroban on two jobs so far but my thoughts are it is far superior to Redgard and HPG.

Opie if Henry is paying you a commission to promote his Hydroban tell him he owes you commission for my purchase of a five gallon bucket. When it is all gone I'm going to melt-down the bucket it came in, that damned bucket surely must have some gold in it somewhere.
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Old 03-04-2011, 04:49 PM   #19
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


I can not tell ya the secret between me and LATICRETE. But they are family and treat me that way...


Hands down LATICRETE was the first to get into liquid membranes with 9235 the fowl smell of goo. I am not pushing them by far............just insisting ya listen to a crazy guy named OPIE. I dont give out great advice alot but if ya use LATICRETE then you will think me
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Old 03-04-2011, 09:37 PM   #20
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Re: Water Proofing Shower Pan New Method


In my neck of the woods a us gallon of hydro ban costs appx 90 smackers. I've never used it, but ive used red guard before. So im assuming the application isnt different just the performance.

I was talking to a laticrete rep in Toronto and he was making some pretty good points. Essentially every us commercial job is waterproof with hydro ban, all the pools and saunas and what have you. Im thinking its time for a switcheroo

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