Shower pan confusion - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Adam B. · 08-17-2008, 03:00 PM

I'm confused about the best way to waterproof a tile shower floor. Hot mop with mortar overlay, or these prefab-d redi shower pans that you can tile over. Anyone have experience with both that can offer some pro's and cons?

orson · 08-17-2008, 03:09 PM

It's a matter of economics. Anyone who says a rigid foam pan is as good as a properly built mud pan probably doesn't know how to build a mud pan or is in the business of selling pre-fab pans.

Adam B. · 08-17-2008, 04:22 PM

To be perfectly honest, I have never done a mud pan. Sounds easy enough. Frame it out, have i hot mopped, throw in a little mesh rebar, float in a few inches of mortar and slope it torward the drain. Am I kidding my self? Am I missing anything important? Forgive my ignorance. Any advice would be appreciated.

Splinter · 08-17-2008, 08:07 PM

Adam, I think you're referring to the Tile-Redi pans vs mud, right? The Tile-Redi's require the use of an epoxy thinset to bond the tile to it. It actually comes with a bag of Laticrete Epoxy thinset. They're alright, I've tiled over them where it was installed before I took over the project. When I do a shower on my own, I use mud. We dont do hot mop on the east coast, but I hear it's perfectly acceptable out there. Two things though... You need a pre-slope under the hot mop. This is a mortar bed that pitches the membrane so any water that hits the hot mop gets to the weep holes faster. It's in the UPC, it is required. Second thing... You dont want to put wire in the final mud bed.. It's unnecessary, and there's a chance you could pierce the hot mop causing a leak. If you're building on a slab, bond the preslope to the slab with a slurry of thinset first, or if it's over a wood subfloor, use roofing felt and wire lath under the preslope.

Orson, the only foam pans I've heard of is the Kerdi tray (schluter) or Wedi. I agree they're for the inexperienced. I believe the pans the OP was referring to was Tile-Redi however. These are hard plastic and quite durable. (and pricey too)

orson · 08-18-2008, 09:19 PM

Ahhhh....I knew there were several types of short cut pans out there but I assumed they were all foam or similar, thanx for the clarification.

To be clear, I have never done a mudpan, my tile guy does them. I personaly wouldn't presume to do one for a customer until I had a few practice pans under my belt. I have spent hours watching my tile guy do them and there's nothing about getting the slopes flat that looks easy to me.

Adam... I personaly would recommend using Mapei's HPG system over your preslope. It is a liquid paste that you trowel down, press a fiber mesh into, then trowel more paste on top. The stuff is bulletproof and is an anti-fracture membrane in addition to waterproofing. You also don't get layers of overlapping material(Kerdi) built up on the wall. Take this with a grain of salt though, I'm the only guy on this forumn advocating it's use over Kerdi. (except for Matt Coops who I think uses RedGuard, a similar type of product w/o the anti-fracture mesh).

When it comes right down to it if you install any type of waterproofing material and tie it into a drain over a preslope you are light years ahead of half the guys installing tile, at least in my area.

LaurieC · 08-19-2008, 10:33 AM

Adam,

Welcome to the site. What area are you working in?

I've never used the prefab pans, my tile guy hates then. What does your tile guy say? Or will you be doing the tile work yourself? I agree with Splinter, no wire lath in the pan. Frame, hot mop (inspect after hot mop), scratch and brown, then tile.

Splinter · 08-19-2008, 07:12 PM

Orson,

I know one issue with the trowel on stuff is consistency... How do you really know you're getting the proper thickness throughout the entire shower area? I have never tried it, and I'd be afraid of leaving a pinhole in a crucial area, so I stick with the Kerdi... If the entire shower is orange, Im good to go. I've done so many that I've figured out how to overlap the sheets to minimize layer buildup. So many of my customers want small mosaics on the floors, so I have to keep the Kerdi relatively flat.

Hi Laurie,

call me Alex...

I used Splinter on another forum years ago, 'cause I am really a wood guy at heart...

Snow Man · 08-19-2008, 07:18 PM

Rubber membrane @ home dumpster by the foot. Fitted into the 6'' curb

Have not had a problem yet.

orson · 08-20-2008, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splinter

Orson,

I know one issue with the trowel on stuff is consistency... How do you really know you're getting the proper thickness throughout the entire shower area?

You trowel down a layer and then embed the mesh into it, then trowel it again after it is set. It ends up being a substantial thickness because the mesh has some thickness to it. It's pretty easy to visually inspect and determine if there are any penetrations once it is dry.

PS-I'm not saying the Kerdi system isn't good, I think it's a very good system. I can, however, see why my tile guy prefers the MPG.

orson · 08-20-2008, 03:42 PM

Here's an example of where we used HPG in a situation that Kerdi might well have created problems:

The customer designed the layout of the niches. I had to frame out the niches to fit perfectly in the tile layout and still leave enough room for the shower valve in between the framing. The plumber had just, and I mean just enought room to fit the valve, pipe, and pex 90's in between the framing. The layout was difficult w/o trying to account for overlapping layers of Kerdi.

Dunno if you can tell from the picture but I screwed up, the lefthand side of the lefthand niche is sticking out past the bullnosed tile that's up against it by a little under 1/16th inch.

Bud Cline · 08-20-2008, 04:39 PM

To you guys that find it necessary to bad-mouth the newer foam shower pans and recommend the liquid membranes over the topical membranes as you are.....

I can only say: Ignorance is bliss!

rbsremodeling · 08-20-2008, 04:49 PM

Hot mop in IMO is crappy work.

Hard to tell if it is done right and I think it promotes and hides mole and water issues.

orson · 08-20-2008, 04:56 PM

I'm not sure how you can construe my post here as bad-mouthing foam shower pans, I just think a properly constructed mud pan is better.

As far as a liquid membrane over a topical membrane, I've formed my opinion by doing extensive research as well as watching both types of installs and questioning my tile man who has been doing both Kerdi and MPG installations for years.

To steal a line from my tile guy, different systems work best in different applications.

I've specificaly asked about MPG on this forum and no one, including you Bud, have had anything to say about it, good or bad.

Since I am wallowing in ignorance then please take a few moments to begin my education!

rbsremodeling · 08-20-2008, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orson

I'm not sure how you can construe my post here as bad-mouthing foam shower pans, I just think a properly constructed mud pan is better.

As far as a liquid membrane over a topical membrane, I've formed my opinion by doing extensive research as well as watching both types of installs and questioning my tile man who has been doing both Kerdi and MPG installations for years.

To steal a line from my tile guy, different systems work best in different applications.

I've specificaly asked about MPG on this forum and no one, including you Bud, have had anything to say about it, good or bad.

Since I am wallowing in ignorance then please take a few moments to begin my education!

Yeah I hate when people post responses with not facts or opinions behind what they are saying.

Educate us BUD!!!

BKFranks · 08-20-2008, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbsremodeling

Hot mop in IMO is crappy work.

Hard to tell if it is done right and I think it promotes and hides mole and water issues.

After they're mopped, the fill them with water and let it sit for a couple of days. No leak = done right. The only part I don't like is the smell when they do the mop.

Splinter · 08-20-2008, 07:19 PM

Bud,

I dont think anyone is bad-mouthing foam pans here... Foam pans do have certain limitations that mud doesnt. I think that most experienced tile guys would prefer to mud a shower floor than deal with potential issues caused by the use of a prefabbed foam pan.

Quote:

I can only say: Ignorance is bliss!

Well, perhaps you should say some more?

Bud Cline · 08-21-2008, 09:18 AM

To-each-his-own.

Quote:

...potential issues caused by the use of a prefabbed foam pan

What are those "potential issues"? Spell them out for us please.

Quote:

It's a matter of economics. Anyone who says a rigid foam pan is as good as a properly built mud pan probably doesn't know how to build a mud pan or is in the business of selling pre-fab pans.

NONSENSE! That's as bad as saying anyone who lives in a trailer park is second class and doesn't deserve better.

The point is, times change and the plastic pans are the wave of the future. Plastic doesn't wick water or moisture, plastic doesn't decay, plastic doesn't support mold and mildew, plastic doesn't have the weight of cement, plastic is clean to work with,.........

What exactly is it that makes the old fashion mud pan "better"?

I can't educate you guys anyway. Do what I did and educate yourselves. Cement backerboard came to be, and left behind a previous quality method. Why?

"Why"? Because times change and methods change and in some cases improve. Cement board has been in use now for more than forty years and the world hasn't come to an end because the old mud guys have gone away.

Vinyl shower pan liners have also been in use for that same amount of time. What was used before them?

Now topical membranes are in vogue. They are your next generation of improvement.

Why insist on getting 90 thousand miles from a 35 thousand mile tire? Embrace the times and do what you can to improve the entire industry.

The same will happen with shower pans.

**genecarp** · 08-21-2008, 10:54 AM

wow i AM just jumping in on the end of this, historically we have always done mud jobs, 25 years worth, on my last visit to the coverings show i spent a good deal of time with the WEDI people, i left there very impressed with the product, so impressed i will be going for a full wedi shower enclosure in my house. this choice is made not by default, i love the flexability the wedi system provides. its like this, wedi is a german engineered system, it was not designed for homeowners who cant do mud, it was designed for pros who can open there minds and appreciate the advantages of a new technologically superior system. there is alot that goes into doing a wedi system (correctly) its not a homeowner type of product, although i am sure some ho will view it that way a f up there homes and damage wedis reputation. i always try to keep my mind open to new product,it helps keep me interested in this buisness. G

Splinter · 08-21-2008, 12:02 PM

Quote:

What are those "potential issues"? Spell them out for us please.

Sure thing, Bud...

Not everyone is doing new construction, or has a homeowner offering big budgets... Most of my showers are in existing spaces and more often than not, they don't match up to the size of a foam pan. Well I can cut the foam to fit, or fill in with drypack where the foam doesnt reach, right? At that point, I may as well just make it all drypack. Cutting the foam also throws off the level perimeter... It may not be much, but you know it's noticeable when using small tiles. The last few showers I've done were neo-angle... That's a lot to cut off a foam pan. Also the drains are never in the same spot, so should the homeowner have to pay for a plumber to move the trap to the appropriate place for the foam tray? With mud, I can leave the drain pretty much anywhere. A lot of homes here are old, and out of level. Heck, even some not-so-old houses around here are way out of level. Why make extra work having to level out a shower subfloor for foam when I can level it off with my drypack?

Quote:

Cement backerboard came to be, and left behind a previous quality method. Why?

The mudbed method is far from gone. Contractors still use it to level floors, wetset large format tile and stone, float over radiant heat tubing. Cement boards are alright for tub surrounds, but I wouldnt even use it on floors anymore since Ditra became readily available.

Again, I dont think anyone is truly knocking the foam... Im open to try a Schluter pan if I'd ever get on a project where it would work out... I personally havent seen Wedi yet. Since I have a lot of Kerdi experience, and it is still considered current technology, I'll stick with it. Wedi isnt readily available around here yet either (AFAIK). As you said, To each his own... That's not necessarily a bad thing, Bud.

orson · 08-21-2008, 02:04 PM

John Bridge
09-03-2004, 06:57 AM
Hi Brian,

I think you should just build the floor yourself out of cement mortar. We have dozens of people doing that very thing. It may seem a bit daunting until you get into it. Check out the Liberry for shower construction threads.

We have a number of people constructing showers using the Schluter Kerdi system also. You don't need the foam shower floor. Mortar works best for showers that don't conform to the ready-made floors.

http://www.schluter.com