Vinyl Floor/kerdi Shower System

 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-13-2008, 12:24 PM   #1
Member
 
rescraft's Avatar
 
Trade: residential remodeling/construction
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 79

Vinyl Floor/kerdi Shower System


Doing a bath remodel and my tile guy is ready to start on the shower. He floats the walls and floors.
I know installing tile over vinyl is a no-no because of bond strength and the possible flexing of the tile over the vinyl. When looking at the Kerdi shower system, they use an expanded polystyrene floor and curb.
If tile installed over vinyl would flex, how is it that tile installed over the Kerdi floor/curb would not flex also?

rescraft is offline  
Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ContractorTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

Old 06-13-2008, 10:47 PM   #2
"da Whale don't hesitate"
 
PrecisionFloors's Avatar
 
Trade: Hard Surface Flooring
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: South Florida
Posts: 2,341

Re: Vinyl Floor/kerdi Shower System


Quote:
Originally Posted by rescraft View Post
Doing a bath remodel and my tile guy is ready to start on the shower. He floats the walls and floors.
I know installing tile over vinyl is a no-no because of bond strength and the possible flexing of the tile over the vinyl. When looking at the Kerdi shower system, they use an expanded polystyrene floor and curb.
If tile installed over vinyl would flex, how is it that tile installed over the Kerdi floor/curb would not flex also?
Well ain't you just a little trouble maker......

Great question

I'm curious to hear 'ol Bud's or Bill's answer to this one
__________________
Precision Flooring
(772) 237-9900
Tile, Hardwood, Laminate, and Resilient
Installation, Sales & Repair - "We do it right the FIRST time"
PrecisionFloors is offline  
Old 06-14-2008, 12:20 AM   #3
Its all ball bearings
 
angus242's Avatar
 
Trade: Tile
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Will County, Illinois
Posts: 16,756

Re: Vinyl Floor/kerdi Shower System


Kerdi shower base (which I believe neither Bill nor Bud use) has a density of 2.75 lb/ft3 with a 57 psi compressive strength and 59 psi shear strength.
If you can find similar statistics for vinyl flooring with underlayment, you'll have some numbers to compare to.
angus242 is offline  
Old 06-14-2008, 12:28 AM   #4
Pro
 
JazMan's Avatar
 
Trade: Tile Contractor-Manufacturers rep. Tile & Marble
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Troy, Michigan
Posts: 238

Re: Vinyl Floor/kerdi Shower System


There is no comparison with the two substrates. The Kerdi base and curb are fully supported with thinset. They are also very dense and when covered with tile the load of traffic is spread over a wide area. It's been tested, proved and used in thousands or maybe hundreds of thousand installations worldwide.

As for your tile setter floating the floor, I guess you're talking about the bath floor now covered with vinyl? If so, he could place deck mud over the vinyl since it is not bonded to it. Of course the vinyl and any 1/4" thick underlayment should be removed regardless.

Jaz
__________________
Tile 4 You llc
KERDI Shower
specialist...DITRA Installs...
www.tile4you.com
JazMan is offline  
Old 06-14-2008, 11:41 AM   #5
Tile Contractor
 
Bud Cline's Avatar
 
Trade: Building Trades-Specializing in Ceramic Tile
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hastings Nebraska
Posts: 1,216

Re: Vinyl Floor/kerdi Shower System


The issues of going over vinyl flooring aren't really with the vinyl flooring itself. Unless it's cushion vinyl. The issues are more with what's under the vinyl in the case of a wood structure. The manner in which most vinyls are installed leaves a lot of room for movement in the substrate. Since you can't see what's there and unless you were the original installer you don't necessarily know what's there or how it was installed. The more layers that get heaped atop one-another the more potential there is for movement. Then there are the perimeter-glued vinyls, won't even go there. A far as flexing...a vinyl covered floor is no more or less likely to flex than any other floor. The vinyl has nothing to do with it.

There are thinsets that will bond to vinyl so I doubt that bonding would be a serious issue.

I have used many of the Shower Kit bases and curbs and the simple answer is that that product has a suitable compressive strength. When covered with KERDI and tile the compressive forces are redistributed and improves the system even more.
Bud Cline is offline  
Old 06-14-2008, 02:04 PM   #6
Its all ball bearings
 
angus242's Avatar
 
Trade: Tile
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Will County, Illinois
Posts: 16,756

Re: Vinyl Floor/kerdi Shower System


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Cline View Post
I have used many of the Shower Kit bases and curbs
My bad. I thought I remembered you (and Bill) saying you still did mud beds and Kerdi walls.
angus242 is offline  
Old 06-15-2008, 01:05 PM   #7
Member
 
rescraft's Avatar
 
Trade: residential remodeling/construction
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 79

Re: Vinyl Floor/kerdi Shower System


What if you've got a 300lb homeowner and he steps into the shower with his heel or ball of his foot? Would that exceed the 57lb/sq ft loading that the Kerdi specs out at?
What if a frameless shower surround was installed, say floor to ceiling height, 1/2 thick that sits on the curb with the thin bottom profile contacting the curb? I know those can be very heavy. Do you think the loading of the glass would be sufficiently spread out over its contact area---say 8ft high by 36-40" wide?
I'm all for new materials/systems that save on labor costs. It seems that the Kerdi system is the future.
rescraft is offline  
Old 06-15-2008, 02:22 PM   #8
Tile Contractor
 
Bud Cline's Avatar
 
Trade: Building Trades-Specializing in Ceramic Tile
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hastings Nebraska
Posts: 1,216

Re: Vinyl Floor/kerdi Shower System


Quote:
What if a frameless shower surround was installed, say floor to ceiling height, 1/2 thick that sits on the curb with the thin bottom profile contacting the curb? I know those can be very heavy. Do you think the loading of the glass would be sufficiently spread out over its contact area---say 8ft high by 36-40" wide?
What if, what if, what if?
In that case I would suggest using Noble's shower curb. The Noble curb is hollow and will fit nicely over 2X4's. This way the wall anchoring will have wood to bite into instead of only plastic.

In some cases the plastic curb-concept may have to be tossed out the window, in that case cement bricks can also be used if rigid support is required for weird walls.

Quote:
Angus: "My bad. I thought I remembered you (and Bill) saying you still did mud beds and Kerdi walls."
I still make my own concrete floors (with KERDI) when a standard Shower Kit won't fit or when the drain is in a weird location. I use the Shwoer Kits every chance I get. They can be cut and fit or added-to but that has its limits.

There is still no "one-size-fits-all" shower floor system available, especially if you as the installer isn't allowed to be involved in the initial planning of the job. In general most customers and GC's think showers are easy and there's is nothing to them.

Last edited by Bud Cline; 06-15-2008 at 02:24 PM.
Bud Cline is offline  


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Styrafoam wall system? mhillis General Discussion 6 10-31-2008 06:58 AM
System Bonding Jumper vs. Main Bonding Jumper Mark Twenhafel NEC Discussion 3 02-09-2008 06:15 PM
Questions on Tiled Shower ksensen Remodeling 10 09-10-2007 09:54 AM
Systems Development List Gordo Business 19 01-08-2007 07:28 PM
Question about shower system... Knyte260 Plumbing 59 10-24-2005 06:05 PM

Join Now... It's Fast and FREE!

Privacy Badge
I am a professional contractor
I am a DIY Homeowner
ContractorTalk.com is for
PROFESSIONAL CONTRACTORS ONLY!

At ContractorTalk.com we cater exlusivly to professional contractors who make their living as a contractor. Knowing that many homeowners and DIYers are looking for a community to call home, we've created www.DIYChatroom.com DIY Chatroom is full of helpful advices and perfect for DIY homeowners.

Redirecing in 10 seconds
No Thanks
terms of service

Already Have an Account?