Tile Wall Anchors

 
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Old 10-01-2006, 11:51 AM   #1
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Tile Wall Anchors


I'm a plumbing contractor with a question. I'm reseting a urinal on Monday in which the wall hanger has pulled loose. There is no backing to screw the hanger to. My questions are these: What is the correct type of drill bit necessary to drill a 5/32" to 1/4" hole through ceramic tile (I tried a Tapcon masonry bit, I went through two of them to drill one hole and when I was done the hole had wobled so much that the tapcon was useless) and what is the appropriate type of wall anchor necessary to keep it from pulling back out? Also, would it be better to drill a 5/8" hole and use toggle bolts instead?

I'm hoping there is a good answer for this and I'm sure their must be but it seems like whenever I see tile situations that I think would call for some type of drilled or hole saw type hole, what I see instead are square cut (tile saw/angle grinder?) holes that are very often larger than the escutcheons or cover plates designed to hide them.

Thanks for your input.
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Old 10-01-2006, 12:01 PM   #2
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Re: Tile Wall Anchors


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Originally Posted by smellslike$tome View Post
There is no backing to screw the hanger to. .
Therein lies the root cause of the problem. However it's reattached, you'll get to revist this problem later without blocking.

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Old 10-01-2006, 12:03 PM   #3
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Re: Tile Wall Anchors


A ceramic tile/glass bit-

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Old 10-01-2006, 12:07 PM   #4
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Re: Tile Wall Anchors


I have never had a problem using even the very cheapest, crappiest masonry bits on ceramic tile. - as long as I used a hammer drill.

Ceramic tile is relatively soft, get into porcelain and it becomes a different animal. From where you are in the project now, I would recommend going to the toggle bolts to finish what you have started.
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Old 10-01-2006, 12:08 PM   #5
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Re: Tile Wall Anchors


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Originally Posted by Dustball View Post
A ceramic tile/glass bit-


Exactly . . .
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Old 10-01-2006, 12:50 PM   #6
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Re: Tile Wall Anchors


Yup.
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Old 10-01-2006, 01:05 PM   #7
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Re: Tile Wall Anchors


With one of the anchors pulled out, I'd recommend that you use the largest toggle you can practially use and that you silicone that sucker to the wall all the way around when done.

This is one time the superior adhesive power of silly cone will be a benefit.

(See Tom'r, I ain't a hater, just not a real fan yet. Gimme time! )
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Old 10-01-2006, 03:12 PM   #8
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Re: Tile Wall Anchors


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Originally Posted by mdshunk View Post
Therein lies the root cause of the problem. However it's reattached, you'll get to revist this problem later without blocking.
Well I was hoping not to have to confess this, and I guess I still don't have to, but the screw up was all mine on this one. I roughed in the drain at the wrong height . There, I said it! I was fortunate in that I missed it too high (just read the wrong measurement off of the spec sheet!) so when I had to cut the wall in order to move it I was able to cut two small holes both of which were covered when I got done. One was covered of course by the urinal and the other one was about 6" inside the edge of where the vanity cabinet sits so I was able to correct it without too much fuss. However, when I lowered the drain I lost my backing which was of course placed at the wrong height also.

Thanks for the help! I think I will go with the toggle bolts. They do make those bits in larger sizes (5/8") don't they? I only ask because after seeing the picture I realized I've seen these bits before but only in smaller sizes. Of course I've never really looked very hard at them because I never needed one until now. I will need a 5/8" or larger I think to get my toggles through the wall.


Mike, aren't you afraid of cracking the tile with a hammer drill?

P.S. I called it ceramic tile because not being a tile guy any kind of tile is ceramic to me. I do of course realize that there are different types of materials used to manufacture tile but if you laid them down in front of me I couldn't tell you which is which. All I can say is that this tile burned up two tapcon masonry bits (which are probably not supposed to be used on anything but concrete for all I know) pretty quick and barely got me through the tile once.

Last edited by smellslike$tome; 10-01-2006 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 10-01-2006, 03:17 PM   #9
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Re: Tile Wall Anchors


If you own a RotoZip, you can drill your small hole with the bit recommended and RotoZip it into a nice rectangle or square to accomodate the toggle bolt wing. Regular ceramic tiles aren't that tough to RotoZip with a Zip tile bit.
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Old 10-01-2006, 06:13 PM   #10
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Re: Tile Wall Anchors


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Originally Posted by smellslike$tome View Post

Mike, aren't you afraid of cracking the tile with a hammer drill?
Not so much afraid as just professionally cautious. I've drilled an awful lot of tile and have not cracked anything yet. I have had subs crack our tile. Unfortunately those glass cutting bits as shown by dustball are not going to guarantee not cracking ceramic tile either.

I don't force the drill, just let it do it's thing. (I read an article in Fine Homebuilding a long time ago when they were testing like 20 hammer drills and they spent a long time describing their testing methods and they concluded that forcing a hammer drill actually slows it down and takes longer for it to drill through, they timed forcing and not forcing and not forcing was always faster.) For holes larger than 1/4" I will first drill it with a smaller diameter bit then once through, go back with the larger bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smellslike$tome View Post
P.S. I called it ceramic tile because not being a tile guy any kind of tile is ceramic to me. I do of course realize that there are different types of materials used to manufacture tile but if you laid them down in front of me I couldn't tell you which is which. All I can say is that this tile burned up two tapcon masonry bits (which are probably not supposed to be used on anything but concrete for all I know) pretty quick and barely got me through the tile once.
Is it 4"x4" and slick? Probably glazed ceramic tile. By the way the hardness and burning up your bits have some but not everything to do with each other. It's more a factor of the speed of the drill. High revolutions create heat and heat is the killer of a drill bit. With a hammer drill it is low revolutions and the little hammer action that makes them go through about 10 times as fast without burning up.

If you already have a hole I would forget the drill bits now and go for the rotozip like MD said.
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Old 10-01-2006, 06:51 PM   #11
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Re: Tile Wall Anchors


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Originally Posted by Mike Finley View Post
Not so much afraid as just professionally cautious. I've drilled an awful lot of tile and have not cracked anything yet. I have had subs crack our tile. Unfortunately those glass cutting bits as shown by dustball are not going to guarantee not cracking ceramic tile either.

I don't force the drill, just let it do it's thing. (I read an article in Fine Homebuilding a long time ago when they were testing like 20 hammer drills and they spent a long time describing their testing methods and they concluded that forcing a hammer drill actually slows it down and takes longer for it to drill through, they timed forcing and not forcing and not forcing was always faster.) For holes larger than 1/4" I will first drill it with a smaller diameter bit then once through, go back with the larger bit.



Is it 4"x4" and slick? Probably glazed ceramic tile. By the way the hardness and burning up your bits have some but not everything to do with each other. It's more a factor of the speed of the drill. High revolutions create heat and heat is the killer of a drill bit. With a hammer drill it is low revolutions and the little hammer action that makes them go through about 10 times as fast without burning up.

If you already have a hole I would forget the drill bits now and go for the rotozip like MD said.

The tile is 12" x 12" and is not slick or "glazed" at least I don't think it's glazed. I do not have a small hammer drill, only a midsize Bosch rotary hammer that I use for 1/2" - 1" water lines through block/brick walls and very light concrete demo (2ft square or less). I do not think this rotary hammer IS AT ALL SUITABLE for this job. I have debated for sometime whether I should buy both a smaller cordless hammer drill and a rotozip. These would both be specialty tools for me and space is very limited on my truck. I think I'll go with the rotozip because it seems to promise more versatility/usefullness. Do they have diamond bits? I'm sure they must. If they do wouldn't this be sufficient to do this job even if there were no holes already drilled at all? If I have to have a hole to start with then can't I use the glass bit and then switch to the rotozip? I would buy both but I really am extremely tight on space until I get a box truck.
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Old 10-01-2006, 07:48 PM   #12
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Re: Tile Wall Anchors


Just buy a 5/32", or whatever, glass cutting bit, - - and cut through there like butter, - - voila!! . . .

You can drill a pilot hole first if you want to, - - but it's not really necessary. Just start off very slow so it doesn't 'wander' on that slippery glaze.

Gotta disagree with any similarity between 'hammering' a masonry bit into the tile, - - and 'gliding' a glass bit in.

Glass bit - - no vibration, no flutes, - - odds increased accordingly.

Seems t' me, (although I don't install urinals), - - your actual best bet is to remove a few tiles, cut into the wall, - - and install a proper backerboard.

Remove only tiles that won't show anyway, - - you can make your backer board (3/4" plywood) longer than the hole you've provided, - - then just slide it in and adjust. Now drill and screw through the remaining tiles to hold the backer, and screw the (hangar plate??) into the plywood.

I think any other way is just a temporary fix . . .

Last edited by Tom R; 10-01-2006 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 10-01-2006, 07:51 PM   #13
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Re: Tile Wall Anchors


Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-A View Post
With one of the anchors pulled out, I'd recommend that you use the largest toggle you can practially use and that you silicone that sucker to the wall all the way around when done.

This is one time the superior adhesive power of silly cone will be a benefit.

(See Tom'r, I ain't a hater, just not a real fan yet. Gimme time! )

My silicone caulk gets tucked in at night . . .
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Old 10-02-2006, 12:46 AM   #14
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Re: Tile Wall Anchors


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Originally Posted by Tom R View Post
My silicone caulk gets tucked in at night . . .
Its a good thing I haven't put the word silicone on my ignore list.
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Old 10-02-2006, 04:29 PM   #15
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Re: Tile Wall Anchors


And roto-zip bits won't even scratch the surface of a floor tile or porcelain tile on a wall, they will burn out in a few seconds and snap, they are only usefull on those cheap thin glazed wall tile and for cutting holes in backerboards, IF you go slow.
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Old 10-02-2006, 05:10 PM   #16
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Re: Tile Wall Anchors


Yah, - - I tried a roto-zip on a floor tile once, - - and let's just say it didn't go anything like the commecial.

Bit would only cut about 1/8" and then just burn . . .
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Old 10-02-2006, 05:35 PM   #17
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Re: Tile Wall Anchors


For those who need to cut through Porcelain and tough stone, these are the ones to use.

http://www.armeg.com/tile-ptc.php

Same as what was shown above.
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Old 10-02-2006, 05:53 PM   #18
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Re: Tile Wall Anchors


RotoZip users, are you having the tile bit burn up? The one that I have is 1/4" solid carbide, about $15 and I've been using it for over a year. Also good for plaster walls.
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Old 10-03-2006, 06:20 PM   #19
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Re: Tile Wall Anchors


Ok, I didn't get by there until today to rehang the urinal. On my way I stopped and picked up a 1/2" glass bit ($12.58) and a regular 5/8" masonry bit ($6.47). Got to the job site. Used the glass bit followed by the masonry bit (only because the glass bit was not large enough). Used both of them in my 18v cordless (non-hammer) drill on low speed. Worked perfectly! 3 toggle bolts and the urinal isn't going anywhere! Thanks for all the input, it really helped!

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