Tile over vinyl pros and cons - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

tileguy7 · 01-17-2009, 02:35 PM

This seems to be the biggest debate in the industry. Some contractors with a lifetime of experience just rough it up, grab some Flexbond, and tile right over it without ever having any issues. Others insist on taking it out, claiming that scarifying doesn't do much of anything, and no mortar in the world will ever bond to it.

My opinion is that if the vinyl is uncushioned, well-adhered (not of the self-stick variety), and there is proper underlayment, why on earth remove it? After all, vinyl could contain asbestos, and surely the glue (cutback) has asbestos since most of the vinyl flooring we're ripping out is twenty or more years old. And if we can just encapsulate asbestos vinyl with a product like Jif-set (and latex modifier), why can't we encapsulate any vinyl flooring? I've heard of tile floors over vinyl lasting a lifetime, so I just don't understand why people still insist on ripping this trash out. It's a pain, it's messy, expensive, and could be downright dangerous.

I'd like to hear what you all prefer to do and what your experiences have been good or bad.

jarvis design · 01-17-2009, 03:14 PM

Hackers tile over vinyl
Professionals do the right thing - rip it out and install a proper substrate

End of Story

cleveman · 01-17-2009, 03:42 PM

how about a real low-pile carpet? The thinset will surely stick to it?

SLSTech · 01-17-2009, 03:47 PM

While laying CT over vinyl is allowed under the TCNA (07 Version - I don't have the newer version handy) they strongly recommend removing the vinyl. In most cases the vinyl, sub floor &/or underlayment is already shot so it is really a no brainier - it has to go. Do you really want to warranty a floor that the base is suspect on?

jarvis design · 01-17-2009, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cleveman

how about a real low-pile carpet? The thinset will surely stick to it?

Only if it is the glued down type!!

tileguy7 · 01-17-2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarvis design

Hackers tile over vinyl
Professionals do the right thing - rip it out and install a proper substrate

End of Story

So that makes guys like Tom Meehan and other "professionals" who've tiled over existing vinyl in many circumstances "hackers"? C'mon, I want a better argument than that.

Brock · 01-17-2009, 04:32 PM

I tried an experiment in my own home in July. Main bathroom layed 12 x 12 straight down over vinyl. So far it looks as good as the day I installed it. I used epoxy grout. That alone prolly made the difference. I did not scarify at all.

I never has used that method for a customer though. I always sell the underlayment. Without it you can't guarantee no callback.

SLSTech · 01-17-2009, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tileguy7

So that makes guys like Tom Meehan and other "professionals" who've tiled over existing vinyl in many circumstances "hackers"? C'mon, I want a better argument than that.

What does a professional motorcycle racer have to do with this? http://tommeehan.com/

jarvis design · 01-17-2009, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tileguy7

So that makes guys like Tom Meehan and other "professionals" who've tiled over existing vinyl in many circumstances "hackers"? C'mon, I want a better argument than that.

OK, how about the numerous jobs I have seen that have failed because they were tiled over vinyl. Does that work for you?

Even if the vinyl is stuck down good and you have prepped it, what is holding down the underlay??

tileguy7 · 01-17-2009, 05:12 PM

Say it's vinyl glued over an SLC over a cement slab in a basement. You had a hard time pulling off a piece, so the vinyl ain't going anywhere. Why not just scarify (granted it's not asbestos) and tile with flexbond? Or better yet, why not just skim coat it with Jif-set and latex additive to encapsulate it, like the manufacturer says right on back of the bag, then tile with flexbond?

The point is that I've seen a lot of these floors in good shape, more good than bad, and ripped 'em all out regardless. But it's a pain in the arse for the contractor and more expensive for the homeowner. Even the TCA just "strongly recommends" ripping it out, but can't give a definitive answer on the subject.

BTW, Tom Meehan owns Cape Cod Tileworks, wrote a good book on tile, and in one section he is shown scarifying and nailing down vinyl, and tiling over it. Obviously this guy's no hack.

R&D Tile · 01-17-2009, 05:25 PM

Quote:

BTW, Tom Meehan owns Cape Cod Tileworks, wrote a good book on tile, and in one section he is shown scarifying and nailing down vinyl, and tiling over it. Obviously this guy's no hack.

Whoopee dooo

Nailed it down too, what a joke.

You want to tile over vinyl to save a few bucks, go right ahead, if it fails, guess who is responsible, the installer.

I don't roll the dice on my jobs or take short cuts.

SLSTech · 01-17-2009, 05:28 PM

I know who he is - but its fun when the names coincide with others. The thing is, we don't know who you are, where your at, and are you just another Homeowner trying to get advice. So post an Intro here, put your location in your profile, and join in.

jarvis design · 01-17-2009, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R&D Tile

Whoopee dooo

Nailed it down too, what a joke.

You want to tile over vinyl to save a few bucks, go right ahead, if it fails, guess who is responsible, the installer.

I don't roll the dice on my jobs or take short cuts.

I could not have said it better!!

tileguy7 · 01-17-2009, 07:24 PM

Uh, gee whiz, I guess I was expecting a lot more from this forum than I'm getting so far. I'm just a regular tile guy with a simple question...

Go to Jifset.com or Maxxon's web site. They make SLCs that can encapsulate vinyl. I'm near chicago, so we have Jif-set in all the stores -- not sure if that's a national product though. The point is, these manufacturers state that you should just remove any loose vinyl! Jif-set even claims "no primer needed," just clean surface with TSP and dampen. So are these companies just full of it, or are you guys just doing what you've been told to do? Or has everyone just experienced too many failures to warrant tiling over vinyl?

My experience isn't great, but after 8 years I've yet to see a tile failure due to vinyl, but what do I know, right? Just thought it would be important if there's more efficient way of doing things.

BACKWOODS · 01-17-2009, 07:48 PM

Whatever you are comfortable backing up should be your choice. I have gone over vinyl with no problems. I use about 60 screws in each 3X5 piece of backer board along with ultraflex2 thinset. No failures in 5 years, about 15 jobs done this way. I also have had no failures on floors with no vinyl. I am not a tile guru but I have had no callbacks on my work.

Brock · 01-17-2009, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tileguy7

Uh, gee whiz, I guess I was expecting a lot more from this forum than I'm getting so far. I'm just a regular tile guy with a simple question...

Go to Jifset.com or Maxxon's web site. They make SLCs that can encapsulate vinyl. I'm near chicago, so we have Jif-set in all the stores -- not sure if that's a national product though. The point is, these manufacturers state that you should just remove any loose vinyl! Jif-set even claims "no primer needed," just clean surface with TSP and dampen. So are these companies just full of it, or are you guys just doing what you've been told to do? Or has everyone just experienced too many failures to warrant tiling over vinyl?

My experience isn't great, but after 8 years I've yet to see a tile failure due to vinyl, but what do I know, right? Just thought it would be important if there's more efficient way of doing things.

LOL. This forum has prolly 5000 members but it is mostly the same 10-20 guys givig smartass comments. That's why I like it so much. I usually just pick a topic and play devil's advocate just to stir the pot. If you want to have some fun ask how much you should charge to lay the tile. You will see these yawhoos go through the roof.