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Tile Installation Failures in a High End Remodel

41K views 144 replies 49 participants last post by  KAP 
#1 ·
Tile failures come in all shapes and sizes. Some crop up as imperfections that only detract from the aesthetics of the installation. Unfortunately, failures in wet locations usually mean mold and rot and damage that can only be fixed by tearing out and starting over. Water is the enemy of all things man-made, and there is no more harsh test of materials and methods than a bathroom.

I visited a project with one of my designers a few weeks back that was completed by another builder approximately 4 years ago. I was asked to look at some tile issues and possible leaks. After such a short time, I was rather surprised they were already having issues.

There are three baths to this project that were remodeled around the same time. The master bath has a marble floor with a visibly crack from wall to wall and a steam shower curb that has cracks between materials and tile falling off in places.

Another full bath with a custom shower also has curb problems and looks to be leaking downstairs.

The last bath has an acrylic tub with tile surround. The joint between the tub rim and wall tile is cracked around the entire perimeter (it was grouted solid--no sealant). When you stand in the tub the crack widens up and the rim of the tub flexes down.

In all of these baths there are indications the tile installer was a poor craftsman. Clumps of grout left in corners, no movement joints anywhere, lipage, open gaps between different materials that can only be seen from a ladder, etc.

These pictures are sickening. Much was spent on these renovations. Lots of care was put into the design and material selections--and I can guarantee the owners thought they would be enjoying these renovated spaces for many many years before having to deal with water leaks, cracked tile, and curbs that are falling apart.

This work wasn't done be a guy in a beat up truck with a rented wet saw. He wasn't a Craigslist Jackleg. The tile sub was a "professional" company. I don't know him personally--I only know him by his work here and on another project which also showed poor craftsmanship.

Master bath:





 
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#6 ·
A few more things that we found on closer inspection of the work:

Mastic was used to install the ceiling tile of the master steam shower, and it was not pitched properly.

There are faint cracks developing throughout the marble floor of the master bath which appear to be spaced 36" o.c. down the length of the room (hardi is the underlayment)

(There's a NuHeat system in the master as well.)

There's mold growth developing on the curbing of the steam shower over one of the unsealed jambs:


Another corner of the steam shower ceiling--grout clump, cracks, no sealant:


Visually the ceiling curb of the steam shower looks off:



On closer inspection:

 
#10 ·
It's a STANDARD acrylic tub, and obviously flexes a ton when you get in it. Not sure what's going on there, but hoping we can open the walls up outside the room to pack mortar or foam underneath. We'll have to remove some drywall to see what's really going on. Worse case will be to tear out the tub and re-install it.

The master floor is a big concern to me. I'm surprised the joints are translating through the mesh of the NuHeat mat. I'm worried about deflection in the floor--but it's not a free span underneath the room so I need to do a little more investigating.
 
#23 ·
It's a STANDARD acrylic tub, and obviously flexes a ton when you get in it. Not sure what's going on there, but hoping we can open the walls up outside the room to pack mortar or foam underneath. We'll have to remove some drywall to see what's really going on. Worse case will be to tear out the tub and re-install it.

I think the tub needs some support around the perimeter underneath the lip, I am surprised how many of times this is not done.

I don't know about you guys but I hate mastic, I don't use it at all for anything ever! Hopefully you can put this place back to gether for the people.
Good luck keep us posted!
 
#29 ·
A few extra bucks to use Kerdi and Ditra might have solved a lot of those woes...
No majik/miracle underlayment will solve those issues.
But the manufacturer of it would make some more money.

but then again if they thought to use Kerdi or Ditra they prolly would have done a good job
That's a very absurd statement.
So what kind of work is done by those that use hardibacker?
Denshield?
Float?
etc.

Tools/gadgets/gimmicks don't make the craft.
 
#15 ·
This kind of stuff pisses me off. Especially if the contractor is a respected guy in the area. He shouldn't be :no:

Stuff like this makes us all look bad. I'm sure he charged a pretty penny for this terrible work. It's not just a few ooppssies, that's just plain poor workmanship. There is no need for that kind of result. Now you can see why I was a bit harsh on the guy who did his first tile job for in his mom's bathroom. This is a perfect example of what can go wrong if you don't tile properly.

I haven't watched the videos yet but I hope Chris put at least 1 Holmes on Homes line in there! :laughing:
 
#16 ·
Around here that's the norm for people who are meant to be "pro" so many times have I heard that the guy coming into do what ever he's doing is the best in his trade and after seeing them work I'm far from impressed. Sometimes I come on here and feel my work is not upto spec compared to some off you guys then I go back to reality and find my work is far above what most customers expect in quality. It will always amaze me how a contractor can look at something like that and think it looks good.

Just the other day I had a kitchen fitter who's been the so called best in this area for 30 years tell me that there's not many people like him who do a good job anymore. Funny thing was he was the biggest hack I had seen in a while. Customer got me to go around and check the kitchen out and I found so many problems it wernt funny.
 
#17 ·
Just a quick appraisal from a few online photos:

The cracks in the curbs are because moisture is getting into the curb structure and the internal curb structure is made of wood. This means the waterproofing of the receptor is leaking or there are screw holes (anchoring glass channel) through the curb liner.

The humps in the walls are bad wallboard seams, just poorly executed by someone that didn't give a dam.

The ceiling issues are because someone isn't as wise as they think they are when it comes to proper procedures.

The tub isn't a big deal and caulk would have likely cured that issue assuming the tub base is installed properly to begin with.

The cracking floor is because the subfloor doesn't meet requirements, the cracking is likely between the joists and over a seam.:)

Normally I'd charge $450 for that information but it would include a written report!!!:)
 
#30 ·
The tub isn't a big deal and caulk would have likely cured that issue assuming the tub base is installed properly to begin with.
And that's quite an assumption....something I've learned to disregard no matter what the cost of the unit. How friggin hard is it to install a plastic shower pan? Apparently it is a very complex thing to do as I've seen every unit in an 8 unit condo building all have various forms of "surfboard" plastic pans. I tore out one unit and the tile company even had the gall to put their company's name, date and phone number in there. I though of calling them, really, and asking them if they were on some "medical" reefer, I mean "cannabis". ;) Granted, they didn't set the pan, but they replaced the greenboard with hardibacker above that pan.

Mebbe the dramatic increase in the need for "medical cannibis" in CO is due to all the homeowners realizing what they really got? ;)
 
#19 ·
I'm surprised he got paid to begin with. That tile work is horrible. Most customers would have picked up on all that crookedness and a plastic escusion behind the tub spout, that's really BAD.
I'm with Dan on this one - how did the customer not notice any of this? Even prior to leaks, cracks, etc. there is significant and visible installation errors.
 
#22 ·
Chris....

So are you going in there to try and repair that:eek: or gutting all the bathrooms and starting over? That is some really "poor work" and improper choice of materials to use who ever did that..... Let me guess..the company that did the work is probably very well known .. advertises a lot.... just a hunch...

Good luck with that job... Some of that looks like a structural problem as Kent said... thanks for sharing.

Brian
 
#33 ·
and that's one of the problems today--ish.
Most of the tile work is done not directly, but by someone that sells the bathroom remod, kitchen remod, remodeling company, etc.'
So whoever does the tile/stonework, is hired by who got the job or is their employee. The only time they see the HO is when they show up to do the job/work and by then it's a sold job, a done deal. If the person actually doing the tile/stone is a quality tile/stone professional, are they going to say, "I guarantee my work for XX years" while the company that got the total job guarantees it for "X years? You make the GC look bad you won't get another job.
I've walked into a job once and said to the "carpenter/setter" that "that WILL fail". HO heard that and what followed was a "discussion".....

A lot of the problem in the trades is "structural", no pun intended....
 
#28 ·
In all of these baths there are indications the tile installer was a poor craftsman. Clumps of grout left in corners, no movement joints anywhere, lipage, open gaps between different materials that can only be seen from a ladder, etc.
That seems to be par for the course these days. OK, the last 10 years I've seen.

"Builders" hire hacks/mexicans so they can make as much money as possible.
"homeowners" buy it either because they're committed and it's being built for them and/or they know they can sell it for more down the road because of the rise in the market (bigger fool principle).
Hacks/mexicans work for bottom dollar because that's all they can find and "can do tile" and/or any work in the US pays far better than in mexico.

That's my analysis of it and I think that's dead on.
What I cannot comprehend is how this has continued to happen for so long. OK, mebbe I do comprehend it. I just refuse to accept it. My wife's friend bought an 800K house and the tile work was atrocious. But that bleneded nicely with the atrocious cabinets, atrocious trim, etc. But they were the "bigger fool" that bought it.

I can give you a list of all the "major" reno companies in denver and they all use mexicans. I hear one on the radio daily and wonder how they can pull their BS as I went in one of their jobs to fix a shower/bathroom someone else started and the HO stated she just wanted someone that can speak english.

Relatedly, why are housing units priced so....yet wages are down in the 1970s range? Or mebbe most importantly.


This work wasn't done be a guy in a beat up truck with a rented wet saw. He wasn't a Craigslist Jackleg. The tile sub was a "professional" company.
It'd be interesting to find out more about that "professional company".
Around here, most use mexicans. Second tier is russians and they can do good work, but there are way too many mexicans lined up ready to work for $12 hour. One company here is or will be shutting down and I say good for them. They were well known by americans for using mexicans with fake SSNs.

I think a lot of the "professionals" in the tile/stone field have either waaaaaay specialized in their niche or have left that field into something else.

Finally, the manufacturers/internet boards are mostly interested in revenue (the first, 100%, the last, 90%). So they are putting out stuff that is, paraphrasing what John Bridge told me, "foolproof for the homeowner to do".

Such is the nature of things. Gimmicks/gadgets/tools are to take the place of putting your time in, learning the trade, becoming a craftsman. And I know people that have been doing (fill in the blank) for double digit years that are still hacks/incompetent. I think I worked for three years before I was allowed to touch a trowel.

Thus...we are getting what we deserve.....IMO.
 
#31 ·
"Builders" hire hacks/mexicans so they can make as much money as possible.
"homeowners" buy it either because they're committed and it's being built for them and/or they know they can sell it for more down the road because of the rise in the market (bigger fool principle).
Hacks/mexicans work for bottom dollar because that's all they can find and "can do tile" and/or any work in the US pays far better than in mexico.


I can give you a list of all the "major" reno companies in denver and they all use mexicans.
.
As many know I am the first one to complain about the illegal problem in the construction industry.But Mexican does not always equal hack.Some of the best tradesmen I know are Mexican.Some of my best friends are Mexican.

A hack is a hack.Nationality has nothing to do with it.
 
#45 ·
There's this street cart between bars in cholula that had the best tortas. I don't know if that memory was more due to time of the night or not tho.

In puebla, there's a german restaurant that had the absolute best shrimp ceviche around. They'd serve it in fountain drink glasses, fresh cilantro, etc.
No mis-remembering that.
 
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