Taking Heavy Fire!!

HS345 · 06-01-2009, 11:54 AM

@ Precision Floors.

ian@prosource · 06-01-2009, 12:07 PM

The Day you stop learning is the the day you have died. old dogs can be taught new trick, it just sometimes takes a little longer.

neolitic · 06-01-2009, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrecisionFloors

I commend you for giving a damn. Including yourself, I could count on one hand, with a couple of missing fingers, the number of HD/Lowes flooring "experts" that I could say that about. I take a very direct approach when I see someone (contractor or not) about to make a foolish mistake, concerning an area I happen to know quite a bit about. Sure, I've pissed off a few cocky GCs and so-called tile contractors, who think they know what they're doing.....I've also had many more than that thank me for educating them and ask tons of questions about other parts of the install. I can, without a bit of doubt, say that over the course of the years, I have saved some homeowner the nightmare of having a faulty tile installation to figure out how to fix. If the cost of that was some pissed off GC....price well worth it imo.

As far as being above someone's pay grade -

It should never be below a GCs pay grade to never stop learning, and give his/her customer a proper job. Period. If your pride is worth more than your finished product, get the **** out of my trade and go practice being a tile man somewhere where you can do no more damage to our industry. We have a hard enough time convincing potential clients that we aren't just another hack who can't take the time to learn how to do it right the first time.

(not aimed at anyone in particular)

Knowledge is available to all of those who seek it. Don't be too arrogant to think it can't come from a HD employee...or anyone else for that matter. You don't know what knowledge they may hold. Just food for thought.

I respect you and your methods,
and I agree with your approach
to your work, but...
if an employee is pissing off your
customers, how long are you going
to keep him around?
That was my point.
While the OP maybe 100% right,
and doing the lord's work here,
it may not be the best approach if
he really needs the job.
I do my best to educate my customers,
but in the end they are the customer.
I can either work with them, or walk.
I admire this kid's desire to educate himself
in the best practices in his field,
just questioning his approach.

Crock · 06-01-2009, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neolitic

I respect you and your methods,
and I agree with your approach
to your work, but...
if an employee is pissing off your
customers, how long are you going
to keep him around?
That was my point.
While the OP maybe 100% right,
and doing the lord's work here,
it may not be the best approach if
he really needs the job.
I do my best to educate my customers,
but in the end they are the customer.
I can either work with them, or walk.
I admire this kid's desire to educate himself
in the best practices in his field,
just questioning his approach.

Exactly. Brings the mind the fact that I never consult a customer on color choice. Never, even if they ask for it, and they do ask. Keep your frikkin pie hole shut.

PrecisionFloors · 06-01-2009, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neolitic

I respect you and your methods,
and I agree with your approach
to your work, but...
if an employee is pissing off your
customers, how long are you going
to keep him around?
That was my point.
While the OP maybe 100% right,
and doing the lord's work here,
it may not be the best approach if
he really needs the job.
I do my best to educate my customers,
but in the end they are the customer.
I can either work with them, or walk.
I admire this kid's desire to educate himself
in the best practices in his field,
just questioning his approach.

Point taken.

Well....I didn't say to not do it tactfully

There is definitely an art to telling someone they're doing something wrong, and I agree with you, pissing off Big Orange's customers ain't gonna sit well with management in the long run.

PrecisionFloors · 06-01-2009, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crock

Exactly. Brings the mind the fact that I never consult a customer on color choice. Never, even if they ask for it, and they do ask. Keep your frikkin pie hole shut.

Why not? I have customer's ask my opinion all the time....and I give it when asked. It's an opinion, not law. Do you not have one? Are you scared to explain why your opinion is what it is? Can you not have a disagreement with your customer and overcome it?

Of course, in the end it's their home and their money so their opinion is the one that counts (and I am sure to tell them so) but sometimes people like help from those that see these types of things on a daily basis. For a lot of folks theses types of decision are the first of their kind, or ones that haven't been made in ages, and they appreciate the help.

How/why do you think Interior Designers and Decorators have a job.....in the end they're just selling their opinion

**ChrWright** · 06-01-2009, 10:53 PM

Influence follows rapport. Without it, even the best advice in the world will be ignored and/or resented. That goes for the egocentric GC, AND the clueless HO.

Mike Finley · 06-01-2009, 11:13 PM

The problem is this issue isn't black and white. The issue isn't as clear cut as for instance saying you shouldn't frame a house using a staple gun.

The thing is that you can sometimes set CBU directly on the sub-floor with no thinset and never have a problem with that floor. The thinset is a safety factor that eliminates issues that develop with a marginal installation. Using thinset will give you a good safety factor, its like creating a dumbed down method that will guarantee less problems in more circumstances, not using it doesn't mean the floor will automatically fail no matter what.

So it's always a tough thing to tell somebody an absolute in construction, especially when it's not a code or structural issue.

HS345 · 06-02-2009, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Finley

The thing is that you can sometimes set CBU directly on the sub-floor with no thinset and never have a problem with that floor. The thinset is a safety factor that eliminates issues that develop with a marginal installation. Using thinset will give you a good safety factor, its like creating a dumbed down method that will guarantee less problems in more circumstances, not using it doesn't mean the floor will automatically fail no matter what.

Gotta disagree with you Mike. Thinset is a requirement of the cbu manufacturer, they are the one that has done the R&D. To say nothing of the TCA (TCNA). It has absolutely nothing to do with being a "dumbed down" method. It has to do with being the proper, and correct method.

You are correct about one thing though, not using thinset under the cbu doesn't mean an automatic failure. It does however, mean the chances of a failure are greatly increased. It also means that if, or when, the installation does fail, the installer is on the hook for not following the manufacturer's instructions, as well as not following industry standards.

Sometimes people are under the mistaken impression that simply because they have never had a call back, that they haven't had any failures.

Mike Finley · 06-02-2009, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HS345

Gotta disagree with you Mike. Thinset is a requirement of the cbu manufacturer, they are the one that has done the R&D. To say nothing of the TCA (TCNA). It has absolutely nothing to do with being a "dumbed down" method. It has to do with being the proper, and correct method.

You are correct about one thing though, not using thinset under the cbu doesn't mean an automatic failure. It does however, mean the chances of a failure are greatly increased. It also means that if, or when, the installation does fail, the installer is on the hook for not following the manufacturer's instructions, as well as not following industry standards.

Sometimes people are under the mistaken impression that simply because they have never had a call back, that they haven't had any failures.

What you said and what I said are identical. Think about it. Think real long and hard and you'll understand what I said. Think long and hard about how manufacturers derive installation, by testing and thinset is nothing BUT a dumb downed method derived as the method that most likely will reduce failures in more cases. You have to understand the nuance of what that means and then it's clear.

I can install CBU all day long in the right circumstances without thinset and never have a failure. Any tile setter should agree with this.

Thinset is not a magical mystical piece of the puzzle. It's simply there to reduce the issue of voids. We know what it does and what it is for. If you know what it's for you know that there are cicumstances where it adds nothing to the installation. There are situations with a perfect plane that thinset would add no value.

I'm not saying to leave it out. This isn't a pissing contest about leaving it out, but it is a forum where more than voodoo can be discussed and as professionals we can let the dark secrets out of the bag as to the why and where fore. This is what separates us from homeowners.

HS345 · 06-02-2009, 09:58 AM

Quote:

What you said and what I said are identical. Think about it. Think real long and hard and you'll understand what I said. Think long and hard about how manufacturers derive installation, by testing and thinset is nothing BUT a dumb downed method derived as the method that most likely will reduce failures in more cases. You have to understand the nuance of what that means and then it's clear.

I can install CBU all day long in the right circumstances without thinset and never have a failure. Any tile setter should agree with this.

Again, gotta disagree. What you and I said are exactly opposite. Manufacturers don't do testing to arrive at a "dumbed down" method of installing their product, they do testing to arrive at the best way to install their product. Do they get it right 100% of the time, no they don't. But when an installer uses the manufacturer's instructions it adds a measure of protection for him, or her.

Any tile mechanic should disagree with any method that does not conform to industry standards. There are no "right circumstances" which negate the need to conform to industry standards, and manufacturers instructions.

I agree this is not a pissing contest, it is about right and wrong. No offense, but you're wrong.

jhark123 · 06-02-2009, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Finley

The problem is this issue isn't black and white. The issue isn't as clear cut as for instance saying you shouldn't frame a house using a staple gun.

The thing is that you can sometimes set CBU directly on the sub-floor with no thinset and never have a problem with that floor. The thinset is a safety factor that eliminates issues that develop with a marginal installation. Using thinset will give you a good safety factor, its like creating a dumbed down method that will guarantee less problems in more circumstances, not using it doesn't mean the floor will automatically fail no matter what.

So it's always a tough thing to tell somebody an absolute in construction, especially when it's not a code or structural issue.

This is why the Contractor was ready to punch your face in, and rightly so. The manufacturer recomends thin set to cover their ass. If the subfloor is new and installed well and the joists have very little crown (TJI's), then the thinset is just insurance. My overall point is that you don't know enough to go around questioning contractor's work. You can't read an install manual and know more than someone who has been doing it a long time.

Mike Finley · 06-02-2009, 10:13 AM

HS345 -

You're just not understanding what I am saying. I can boil it down to a simple question:

Is it possible for me to ever install CBU without thinset and not have a failure?

Yes or no?

Mike Finley · 06-02-2009, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HS345

Again, gotta disagree. What you and I said are exactly opposite. Manufacturers don't do testing to arrive at a "dumbed down" method of installing their product, they do testing to arrive at the best way to install their product.

And that's absolutely wrong. They are testing to produce a method that is dumbed down enough to generate the least amount of failures.

Any manufacturer could produce a list of 1000 exceptions to check for with a flow chart the size of the mall of America to follow, and deal with the mass confusion and miss-installations due to errors in following those instructions or they can dumb it down to :

"Always use thinset".

HS345 · 06-02-2009, 10:28 AM

Gentleman, I think we're gonna hafta agree to disagree.

Mike Finley · 06-02-2009, 03:23 PM

Or you can answer the simple question in post #33.

HS345 · 06-02-2009, 03:54 PM

Of course the answer is yes.

You can also do a Jersey mud job and not have it fail, that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

You could also use liquid nails under the cbu and not have it fail, still doesn't make it the right thing to do.

Let me ask you a question. Why would you want to purposefully do something as an installer, that goes against manufacturer's specs, as well as research done by the TCA, and place yourself and your customer at greater risk of failure and financial responsibility?

Like I said, why don't we simply agree to disagree? You do it your way, and I'll do it the right way.

SLSTech · 06-02-2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Finley

Or you can answer the simple question in post #33.

Fine I will answer it & a few other points made

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Finley

Is it possible for me to ever install CBU without thinset and not have a failure?

Yes or no?

YES - I have seen a few done that way & they didn't fail, he11 there are thinset companies that offer products for installing tile directly to plywood

Is it recommended or warrantied by the manufacturers? No

Do manufacturers test for the best install method - sorry but mostly the answer is no, they test to meet certain established standards & generally the easiest & cheapest way to meet those standards (they want to sell the product & want people to us it)

Was the OP correct in what he stated - as written yes

Will the OP keep his job though if he continues on as stated? no he needs to work on his approach as mentioned by others

Mike Finley · 06-02-2009, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HS345

Of course the answer is yes.

There you go. Now you know what I meant by:

Quote:

The problem is this issue isn't black and white. The issue isn't as clear cut as for instance saying you shouldn't frame a house using a staple gun.

The thing is that you can sometimes set CBU directly on the sub-floor with no thinset and never have a problem with that floor. The thinset is a safety factor that eliminates issues that develop with a marginal installation. Using thinset will give you a good safety factor, its like creating a dumbed down method that will guarantee less problems in more circumstances, not using it doesn't mean the floor will automatically fail no matter what.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HS345

Let me ask you a question. Why would you want to purposefully do something as an installer, that goes against manufacturer's specs, as well as research done by the TCA, and place yourself and your customer at greater risk of failure and financial responsibility?

Why would I? I wouldn't, not now because of the circumstance I am in. Have I installed CBU without thinset in the past? Sure, under different circumstances which don't exist now. This has never ever been about what I would or wouldn't do, only a discussion of the realities of CBU and thinset. Your disagreement is confused about 2 topics, one being what you could do and one being what you should do. We both now have admitted what you could do and agree on that, we also actually agree on what you should do, the only difference now is you have changed your original opinion on what you could do and agree now that thinset can be left out, should it? That wasn't ever part of our discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HS345

Like I said, why don't we simply agree to disagree? You do it your way, and I'll do it the right way.

Our ways are the same, we don't install CBU without thinset for exactly the reasons you have stated here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by HS345

Let me ask you a question. Why would you want to purposefully do something as an installer, that goes against manufacturer's specs, as well as research done by the TCA, and place yourself and your customer at greater risk of failure and financial responsibility?

Crock · 06-02-2009, 04:27 PM

What if you don't put thinset underneath CBU or on top and you just dry lay the tiles with epoxy grout. Will this work if the the floor is plane?

06-01-2009, 11:54 AM	#21
HS345 View Profile HS345 Tile Contractor Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (799) Photos (13) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Tile Contractor Trade: Ceramic and Natural Stone Tile Contractor Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Sherrodsville, Ohio Posts: 799	Re: Taking Heavy Fire!! @ Precision Floors.

06-01-2009, 12:07 PM	#22
ian@prosource View Profile ian@prosource ian @antex western Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (38) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity ian @antex western Trade: flooring Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada Posts: 38	Re: Taking Heavy Fire!! The Day you stop learning is the the day you have died. old dogs can be taught new trick, it just sometimes takes a little longer. __________________

06-01-2009, 10:53 PM	#27
ChrWright View Profile ChrWright Builder/Remodeler Send Message Follow Blogs (2) Threads (3,563) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (6) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Builder/Remodeler Trade: Builder/Remodeler Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Indianapolis, Indiana Posts: 3,563	Re: Taking Heavy Fire!! Influence follows rapport. Without it, even the best advice in the world will be ignored and/or resented. That goes for the egocentric GC, AND the clueless HO. __________________ Christopher Wright, CR: President @ WrightWorks, LLC/President @ Central Indiana NARI, Named to the 2010 REMODELING Big50 www.WrightWorks.net - Facebook - Twitter - Carmel Remodeling Indianapolis Kitchen Remodeling Contractor - You Can Get There From Here

06-01-2009, 11:13 PM	#28
Mike Finley View Profile Mike Finley Chief Toilet Mover Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (14,078) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Chief Toilet Mover Trade: Bathroom Remodeling Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 14,078	Re: Taking Heavy Fire!! The problem is this issue isn't black and white. The issue isn't as clear cut as for instance saying you shouldn't frame a house using a staple gun. The thing is that you can sometimes set CBU directly on the sub-floor with no thinset and never have a problem with that floor. The thinset is a safety factor that eliminates issues that develop with a marginal installation. Using thinset will give you a good safety factor, its like creating a dumbed down method that will guarantee less problems in more circumstances, not using it doesn't mean the floor will automatically fail no matter what. So it's always a tough thing to tell somebody an absolute in construction, especially when it's not a code or structural issue.

06-02-2009, 10:28 AM	#35
HS345 View Profile HS345 Tile Contractor Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (799) Photos (13) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Tile Contractor Trade: Ceramic and Natural Stone Tile Contractor Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Sherrodsville, Ohio Posts: 799	Re: Taking Heavy Fire!! Gentleman, I think we're gonna hafta agree to disagree.

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06-02-2009, 10:13 AM	#33
Mike Finley View Profile Mike Finley Chief Toilet Mover Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (14,078) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Chief Toilet Mover Trade: Bathroom Remodeling Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 14,078	Re: Taking Heavy Fire!! HS345 - You're just not understanding what I am saying. I can boil it down to a simple question: Is it possible for me to ever install CBU without thinset and not have a failure? Yes or no?

06-02-2009, 03:23 PM	#36
Mike Finley View Profile Mike Finley Chief Toilet Mover Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (14,078) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Chief Toilet Mover Trade: Bathroom Remodeling Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 14,078	Re: Taking Heavy Fire!! Or you can answer the simple question in post #33.

06-02-2009, 03:54 PM	#37
HS345 View Profile HS345 Tile Contractor Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (799) Photos (13) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Tile Contractor Trade: Ceramic and Natural Stone Tile Contractor Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Sherrodsville, Ohio Posts: 799	Re: Taking Heavy Fire!! Of course the answer is yes. You can also do a Jersey mud job and not have it fail, that doesn't make it the right thing to do. You could also use liquid nails under the cbu and not have it fail, still doesn't make it the right thing to do. Let me ask you a question. Why would you want to purposefully do something as an installer, that goes against manufacturer's specs, as well as research done by the TCA, and place yourself and your customer at greater risk of failure and financial responsibility? Like I said, why don't we simply agree to disagree? You do it your way, and I'll do it the right way.

06-02-2009, 04:27 PM	#40
Crock View Profile Crock Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (397) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Fan of Bodger Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 397	Re: Taking Heavy Fire!! What if you don't put thinset underneath CBU or on top and you just dry lay the tiles with epoxy grout. Will this work if the the floor is plane?

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