Stone Is Grouted But Not Sealed

caustin

My subcontractor installed 16x16 stone (travertineish, i think, very flaky) in my client's bathroom. Client requested stone to be sealed (with an "enhancer" sealant) then grouted. Sub thought that if he sealed first, grout would not "stick". So, stone is grouted, no seal, and client is freaking.

I am researching this and so far have only found one reason for the order of operations (lay tile, seal, grout): the grout can discolor the stone if the stone isn't sealed.

The grout is very close in shade/color to the base color of most of the stone, plus the stone is rather multi-colored, so my sense is that even if there is discoloration, it's not going to be a huge big deal, probably wouldn't be very obvious. Personally, not hugely worried about that (or should I be?).

In a nutshell, here are my questions:

1) Is there is any other reason for sealing stone before grout install that would have to do with integrity of the finished product?

2) I also see that there needs to be a wait of several days before applying any sealer to grout; is that just for grout drying time?

(I can find websites that say these are the things you have to do, but I can't find any site that says why, so any links to that sort of info are also helpful, so I can explain it to my client (and run my sub a little better).)

Thanks, all!
(Office Manager stepping in as Project Manager for the duration)

orson

If the stone is very porous it can suck the moisture out of the grout so quickly that you can't work the grout into the joints well before it's drying out.

If the Stone is porous and not sealed dark colored grouts can actually color in the small pores in the tile and "stain" it, thereby discoloring it.

These are the only reasons I know of to seal before grout, other than to possibly make cleaning the grout off easier after grouting.

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olzo55

is your cleint an expert installer? maybe they just read that info or were told by their friend that it should be done that way. They are micro managing in my opinion.
there are reasons to seal before grouting and there are reasons to do it after the tile is grouted. if the grout matches the travertine then i would let the grout fill whatever holes are in the tile then seal. if the travertine doesn't match the grout selected and the owner can live with some holes/fissures open then seal before grouting.
did the installer do it wrong? i don't think so.

olzo

Bud Cline

Travertine can't be described as "flaky". Travertine is not flaky. Travertine also is not usually multi-colored. It can come in many colors but not usually "multi-colored" in a single order of product.

All natural stones with maybe one or two exceptions should be sealed prior to grouting to insure that grout-color-leaching won't take place and to make the cleaning of the grout from the surface of the tile more successful. Sealing first will also eliminate the possibility of permanently streaking the surface of the tile while cleaning the grout. Once the grout has dried, everything should again be sealed. The amount of sealer used (number of applications) depends on the porosity of the stone. Stone enhancers can also be used to bring up the beauty of the stone and to serve as a sealer stain resister.

caustin

@ olzo55: yes, client just "read that" somewhere; yes, i agree she's micro-managing. problem is, i'm in a bad position already on this job & she's nitpicking at this point.

@ bud cline: it can't be travertine then, prob a slate/shale of some sort? it flakes all over the place. i don't think the grout staining is an issue, as the colors match very well. the color range goes from lavender to mustard, mostly lavender, and the grout matches the lavender almost exactly. my thought is that if there is grout staining, it's just going to look natural because of the variance in colors. or am i completely off?

any thoughts on careful cleaning to get the grout off without damaging the surface of the stone?

Bud Cline

OK now I'm not following this...

What is the problem? The fact that sealer was requested but was not applied isn't necessarily a major problem. If the tile isn't stained by the grout then there is no issue. The tile should also be sealed after the grout...so seal the job and be done with it. The customer has what she wanted - no harm no foul.

caustin

@ bud - lol! yes, i agree!!!!! Her big issue seems to be that we didn't do it the way she wanted (according to the handout from Floor & Decor :P ) plus it looks dirty. :::::::::::::sigh::::::::::

Bud Cline

She's buckin' for an (after the fact) discount, look out, it's going to cost you!!!

caustin

Don't I know it! I can see it coming; seems like every time my sub or I talk to her she's fine with whatever, then 20 minutes later I get a nasty email complaining about whatever she was ok with 20 minutes ago. Feels like she's "preparing her argument" via email. I'll probably get her substantial completion payment, but the final 5k is going to be a battle. I'm thinking I need to start brushing up on lien law, eh?

Mike Finley

Don't pay the sub yet.

From what you are saying the sub is in breach of contract with you in regard to the installation.

He deviated from the contract. His deviation was done on a false fear (showing his lack of experience).
The pre-seal was designed to prevent a possible problem. Sounds like from your description that the problem didn't surface, however if the customer is going to get into a look at this, see that? This is what I feared would happend and why I told you I wanted it sealed first prior to grouting...

If that happens then basically the freak'n tile sub is at fault for creating this situation. Had he simply followed the contract you wouldn't be in this situation.

caustin

@ Mike: Good point. No, sub won't be paid at least until client signs off.

olzo55

Mr. C,
how about finding out what the material really is. now we are guesiing what was installed. it looks dirty and flakes off --sounds like slate. if it's slate then wash it and use an enhancer to bring out the color. But, do a TEST sample for her and get her approval. you've just covered yourself.

olzo

Bud Cline

WHERE exactly is this tile in this bathroom.

I'm going to give you a little warning here. You had better get your money (all of it) before that slate (if it is slate) begins to leach iron oxide into/onto everything, AND IT WIIL if there is any moisture present on a regular basis.

Why is it YOU don't know what kind of tile was used if you are the contractor? Just curious!

Floordude

When a client starts dictating to you how the work is done, you need to set them straight and real quick, or walk away from the job, before you ever start!!!

Your sub is the professional and should know the slate should have been sealed prior to setting it... Period. Now the client is more educated then you or your sub, and it is going to cost you in the end. Those big dollar signs don't look so big now, do they??

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Bud Cline

Pw - lmao

caustin

@ olzo: this is the stuff: ok, i can't post a link; go to floor & decor website, search on raja, and that is it. I believe the sub is planning to wash the grout off, it seems to come off on your hands when you rub it (dusty). after that, seal it all.
p.s., i'm a girl

@ bud: stone is on floor, front of tub, and on shower walls; i do know what it is, but we ARE putting travertine in another bathroom (another link i can't put in, but at floor & decor search for ivory pattern, and that's it) and another bathroom (same site, search for pewter, and it's not the one with a small pattern) so i mixed myself up

So, we also have the opportunity to do this correctly on the 2nd & 3rd bathrooms. yay.

Plus, I'm Office Manager filling in as Project Manager; lots of years working in construction office & sell T&M's all day long, but the actual details of things i don't always know (tho i'm great with estimating time for just about anything!).

@ floordude: the estimator who sold this job ended up giving the client what you might call a verbal "handshake" deal on anything she wanted, stock answer being "there's money in the contract" (and which among other things apparently includes exactly 10 paint colors in a 3-bedroom condo). estimator then became our project manager, got the demo done, then quit; no work on job for 2 months (my bad, was working on other things) until client called to tell us she had to move in in 30 days. company owner wouldn't let me just cancel the job, so we move forward. I'm learning much of this as I go, and don't mind doing that, but she has her dad and all of his new jersey lawyers breathing down our necks and we're just in a bad position here. i have learned this week that my sub is great with production type work, but not so much custom (ask me again about paint). I am not trying to cut corners or cheat the client, but I did rely on my sub to give accurate info; which, in context of his approach to production, he probably did. Now, I have to fix it. We're already upside down on this job & still more to go, so we're not finishing this job for the $$, we're finishing it because the owner wants to do the right thing.

that said, i agree with you that client can't run things, but this job just started bad & got worse & i'm just trying to get it finished.

Floordude

Dang.... I was spot on

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jciotti7

Set the slate in thinset and let it set, seal it; let it dry; (grout it -easier to clean now) and then seal it again.

deck king

The key here is to take control of the project. stick to the contract, period! if you have a written contract, verbal agreements are not valid, I have dealt with attorney customers and the bottom line is other than free legal representation they are held to the letter of the contracting laws.
Let the customer know you are professionals and there are various ways to install everything, the way you sub installed it is correct, and warranteed. express no warrantee work to be performed before final payment. Now, what you do need to know about is the home repair and remodeling act ( at least in Illinois) you are required by law, to provide your customers with a copy at the time of sale for any project on their home over the price of $ 1,600.00. if you fail to do so, the customer can actually sue you for a full refund of the project cost EVEN IT HAS BEEN COMPLETED! this law was inacted in 2001 and is starting to be enforced.

R&D Tile

No chit, thanks for reminding me.