Shower Pan/ Wetbed

Graeson

What is your method for a shower pan/ wetbed?

I normally preslope the pan, install and connect the membrane to the drain (membrane going up the walls 10" and over the curb), install the cement board on the shower walls (although it usually flares out due to the membrane - how do I alleviate this without chipping out the 2x4's?), screw in the drain shaft, "pull" and slope the wetbed - usually 3/16" to 1/4" every 1', then paint on some TEC Hydraflex after the bed is walkable...

This is the method my mentor (40 years of tiling with no advertising - he lives pretty good!) taught me - I've been hearing a lot of different methods recently and wanted to get everyone talking about it in one thread, so BE SPECIFIC!

Bud Cline

Use 1/4" lattice to fir-out the studs stopping the lattice about 10-12 inches up from the bottom. This gives you a place to tuck the vinyl and will allow you to keep the wallboard plane at the bottom.

Graeson

Thanks Bud...

This is the method you use I presume?

Bud Cline

Yes but NOT ANYMORE.

I have gone to the Schluter Shower Kits totally. They eliminate all that crap and I don't have to carry and mix four or five hundred pounds of mud anymore, all I cary is the four pound shower floor.

Graeson

Fair enough, Bud!

Question as far as cost for the client/customer - my local tile store carries the 48"x48" full kits for $498.00 and the 32"x60"s for $419.00 (or it may be the other way around - I forget...) This is atleast 4-5 times as much as I would spend on Portland, sand, and membrane, etc. - Obviously, the cost of the kit is added into the estimate/contract - Do YOU charge the same amount for labor? - more? - less? OR is this a taboo question?

Floordude

Charge more and finish in a 1/4 of the time. You make up for the time saved, in the out of pocket cost. Do the figures.

Your back will thank you.

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kevjob

no better system than kerdi for steamers and showers.

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Kevin
Basement Finishing Highlands Ranch Colorado
Littleton Colorado, Basement Remodeling
Kitchen Remodeling Denver

Bud Cline

I don't worry about costing every item anymore. I charge a flat charge per square foot of footprint and I'll do about anything they want for that price. Benches and niches are extra, anything more than two wall penetrations is an extra. Tile on the ceiling is extra, glass block is extra, sloped access is extra. Steam showers are way extra.

I realize I am putting about $300 in Schluter's pocket that once fit nicely in my pocket but my install time has been cut drastically. I recently raised my prices to make up for the difference anyway. The customer can take it or leave it. I deliver a state-of-the-art shower facility for a reasonable price and the showers are basically guaranteed from now on. I have never had a shower failure so I am resting my warranty decision and my price on that fact.

I reserve the right to work for whom I want to and have over the years developed a referral list that serves me well. I no longer compete for any job. If the customer is shopping price only it ain't gonna be me that gets the job.

Bill_Vincent

LAZY!!

They're also getting a drastically upgraded shower, as well. Instead of just having a vapor barrier behind the cement board, the shower is now completely waterproof. You can take ANY Kerdi shower and by only extending the Kerdi and tile to cover the ceiloing and add a steam generator, you can take any kerdi shower and turn it into a steam room. The system is that good.


BTW, Bud (a little off topic)-- nevermind 4-500 pounds-- I may have just scored about 3000 feet of mudset soapstone and limestone! I got my fingers, toes and eyes crossed!!

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Graeson

You guys rock! Not only do you answer my questions, but you (Bill and Bud) give me a little show too! I love friendly/competitive rivalries!

Thanks again!

Bud Cline

Bill and I have known each other for a long time now and we have learned during that time that over the years we have developed some of the same techniques and ideas but independently. We have never met, even though Bill drove right past my house two years ago on his way to Utah. The turd!

Based on our similar experiences we also both recognize the benefits of the Schluter System's products. Now if we could just figure out how to get paid by Schluter for all the products we sell for them we could probably retire. To say nothing of the products we buy from them.

Hey Schluter? Did you lose my shipping address?

Bill_Vincent

NO KIDDING!! I'd never have to set another piece of tile ever again!!

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"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're probably right."

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orson

Bill,

I recalled you mentioning your reservations about putting Kerdi right on drywall w/ no vapor barrier behind it. I was grilling my local daltile guy and he about crapped his pants when I mentioned doing this. He said the Kerdi should be laid over a CBU w/ felt behind the CBU, no ifs ands or buts and he doesn't give a flying what anyone else says. Just wanted to let you know you are not alone in your condensation theories.

www.rubycon.us
Ruby Construction LLC
Lancaster Kitchen Remodeling
Lancaster Bathroom Remodeling

Bill_Vincent

Well, he's close. DO NOT use a vapor barrier, or you create what's called a moisture sandwich. The Kerdi is vapor proof as well as waterproof, and if you put a vapor barrier behind the wallboard, whether it be CBU OR sheetrock, you're going to create a major mold breeding ground.

__________________
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're probably right."

http://www.creativeceramicandmarble.com

Graeson

Okay...

Here's a Kerdi Shower System question... I've heard that it's kind of a pain in the a## to get the drain correctly in place if you don't have access from underneath? You guys got any experience with this?

Bill_Vincent

Sorry, but I don't, although it would stand to reason. I've never used the pan tray, or the foam curb. I've always built my own curb and mudded my own pan.

__________________
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're probably right."

http://www.creativeceramicandmarble.com

Bud Cline

It is certainly helpful if the drain location is where it should be in relation to the Schluter Tray but at the very least it needs to be "in range".

This means you have the option of cutting the tray to reposition the drain to fit the actual location but when you start trimming the tray you start changing the slope. A trimmed tray is easy enough to fill around with concrete mix.

Usually not a major stumbling block.

speedster1

I've never used Kerdi but from looking at the installation pictures it appears that the seams covering the drywall are overlapped by a couple of inches and bonded by thinset on both top and bottom similar to how one would use drywall tape?

This seems fine on the upper walls but am I the only one who's a little apprehensive about seeing that technique used around the wall-to-floor pan juntions and the curb? Seams like a good old fashion uncut membrane would work better.

I do like the presloped pans that do away with mortar beds but the coverings look quationable to me.

Bill_Vincent

They did a demonstration years ago. They took heavy cardboard box, lined it with Kerdi, and filled it up with 3' of water, and left it there. Weeks later, not a drop had escaped. Now, that's more hydrostatic pressure than ANY shower's ever going to see. As for the seams, there's a reason for that two inch overlap. During the time that box was filled, the water penetrated 3/4", and no further. With the two inch overlap, even with seasonal movement where the membrane will stretch some, no way will water get by that seam.

__________________
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're probably right."

http://www.creativeceramicandmarble.com

Bud Cline

Technically there is a phrase that describes how the KERDI Mat works and that phrase escapes me right now. The simple explanation is that KERDI not only can't absorb water, it does in fact have the ability to repel water and therein lies the secret. A two inch seam is more than adequate to prevent moisture migration through the thinset that makes the seam.