C.C.R.

Does anyone see anything wrong with this pic.? Besides the fact that there is no weepholes in the drain, no pre-slope under the pan, the floor the pan is on is actually pitched away from the drain, and the curb hasn't even been framed yet.

This is the pan I've been talking about in my recent threads. Now I hear what you're saying about cutting a running. But this customer has been a pleasure to work with and I don't want to leave him high and dry. The plumber insists he's been doing shower pans this exact way for 10 years with no problems. I don't see it. At very best wouldn't the water sitting in the pan under the mud eventualy corrode the pan and possibly ruin the mud from underneath? Any advice from you ol'timers would be greatly appreciated.

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angus242

If you don't want to leave the customers high and (not so) dry, I would suggest you need to educate them. There has to be a ton of threads on the John Bridge site. Find a few and direct your customers there to read for themselves. Then tell them to find a new plumber.

Dustball

Perhaps showing this diagram would help educate-

http://www.johnbridge.com/pics/mortarbed.jpg

MattCoops

It's actually plumb code to have a pre slope of 1/4" per foot (minimum).

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Bill_Vincent

Let your customer know that the pan needs to go. It's only good sense that if there are no weepholes in the bottom of the drain, that water's going to sit there, causing corrosion as well as becoming a breeding farm for all kinds of mold, mildew, bacteria, and other nasty stuff. If there were weepholes at the base of the drain, atleast then you could do a "pan within a pan", and not worry about removing the copper. But the alternative is to punch holes (or more appropriately have the PLUMBER punch holes in the drain pipe with a drill, and if he's got PVC running up to the drain cover, like I've seen a couple of times, they'll end up with a pretty bad leak between the pan's drain pipe, and the actual pvc drain pipe.

If they refuse to have anything done about it, I'd say your best bet is to walk away.

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kevjob

uhh houston we have a problem...

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C.C.R.

I was actually hoping you would chime in Matt. I thought there was a code issue but the plumber says he got checked off on it. You occasionaly site the "tile standards" is there a website that I can check out and possibly get book of standard practices on tile setting.
Thanks

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angus242

http://www.tileusa.com/MasterWebForm...20Form0208.pdf

I wouldn't believe that passed inspection. The HO should have had the permit available to them and should have known if it was, in fact, inspected.

C.C.R.

yeah, this job has been sort of dicey since I got there. I took over after the original GC dropped the ball HARD. And this plumber is in the same position. The original GC WAS the original plumber.

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A.W.Davis

I've never even seen a drain like that before!

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C.C.R.

Thanks angus, I think that's just what I'm looking for.

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Grumpyplumber

Having the pan at 1/4" pitch is obviously good measure, I do it... however..and I could stand corrected...if the mortar/tile is leaking..I don't think a pitch will have a substantial effect on standing water/dampness within the mortar.
Though weepholes seem like a good idea, it seems like that would defeat the actual purpose of the shower pan in the first place, not a practice I'm familiar with.

CCR - I had this debate with someone maybe a year ago regarding MA code

...the way our code is worded, there's no actual mention of a pitch on the shower pan.
Now, I'm far from perfect, maybe another MA plumber will chime in and show me/us the actual code in our heiroglyphic styled book that requires us to pitch the pan.
My experience has been the GC will have the floor mortared to pitch prior to installation..again, good idea in my book, other shops will have the tile guy pitch down to the drain, or a combo of both.

Here's the quote from CMR 248 (MA) on shower pans:

Shower Floors or Receptors.

1. Floors or receptors under shower compartments shall be laid on or be supported by a smooth and structurally sound base.
2. Floors under shower compartments, other than those laid directly on the ground surface or where prefabricated shower base receptors have been provided, shall be lined and made watertight by the provision of suitable shower pans of durable Product-approved materials. (weep holes?)
3. Shower pans shall turn up on all sides at least above the finished threshold level.
4. Shower pans shall be securely fastened to the waste outlet at the seepage entrance making a watertight joint between the pan and the outlet.
5. Floor surfaces shall be constructed of smooth, non-corrosive, nonabsorbent, and waterproof materials.

Now, I'm sure this'll arouse some ...um...discussion, don't kill the messenger.
Feel free to correct me, anyone that can find actual code that states there should be a pitch.

C.C.R.

its actually a special two piece clamping drain. the bottom part has the weep holes and the top part clamps on top of the pan material affectively clamping the drain to the pan. Right? I just read the plumbing code and found the same thing. As far as the code goes I think the only arguement I would have with this plumber (besides common sense) would be the pan is supposed to be non-corrosive material. Copper is corrosive. Now keep in mind I have no quarrels with this plumber I just want it done right.

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Bill_Vincent

You know the plumber's not going to give a care what YOUR TILE specs say, so show him HIS specs-- from TWO DIFFERENT SOURCES:

IRC Preslope code:
2000 IRC:
P2709. 3 Installation. Lining materials shall be pitched one-fourth unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent slope) to weep holes in the subdrain by means of a smooth, solidly formed subbase, shall be properly recessed and fastened to ap-proved backing so as not to occupy the space required for the wall covering, and shall not be nailed or perforated at any point less than 1 inch (25. 4 mm) above the finished threshold.

Uniform Plumbing Code related to shower pan construction.

"412.8 When the construction of on-site built-up shower receptors is
permitted by the Administrative Authority, one of the following means shall
be employed:
(1) Shower receptors built directly on the ground:
Shower receptors built directly on the ground shall be watertight and shall
be constructed from approved type dense, non-absorbent and non-corrosive
materials. Each such receptor shall be adequately reinforced, shall be
provided with an approved flanged floor drain designed to make a watertight
joint in the floor, and shall have smooth, impervious, and durable surfaces.
(2) Shower receptors built above ground:
When shower receptors are built above ground the sub-floor and rough side of
walls to a height of not less than three (3) inches (76 mm) above the top of
the finished dam or threshold shall be first lined with sheet plastic*,
lead* or copper* or shall be lined with other durable and watertight
materials.
All lining materials shall be pitched one-quarter (1/4) inch per foot
(20.9 mm/m) to weep holes in the subdrain of a smooth and solidly formed
sub-base. All such lining materials shall extend upward on the rough jambs
of the shower opening to a point no less
than three (3) inches (76 mm) above the top of the finished dam or threshold
and shall extend outward over the top of the rough threshold and be turned
over and fastened on the outside face of both the rough threshold and the
jambs.
Non-metallic shower sub-pans or linings may be built-up on the job site
of not less than three (3) layers of standard grade fifteen (15) pound (6.8
kg) asphalt impregnated roofing felt. The bottom layer shall be fitted to
the formed sub-base and each succeeding layer thoroughly hot mopped to that
below. All corners shall be carefully fitted and shall be made strong and
watertight by folding or lapping, and each corner shall be reinforced with
suitable webbing hot-mopped in place. All folds, laps, and reinforcing
webbing shall extend at least four (4) inches (102 mm) in all directions
from the corner and all webbing shall be of approved type and mesh,
producing a tensile strength of not less than fifty (50) psi (344.5 kPa) in
either direction. Non-metallic shower sub-pans or linings may also consist
of multi-layers of other approved equivalent materials suitably reinforced
and carefully fitted in place on the job site as elsewhere required in this
section.
Linings shall be properly recessed and fastened to approved backing so
as not to occupy the space required for the wall covering and shall not be
nailed or perforated at any point which may be less than one (1) inch (25.4
mm) above the finished dam or threshold. An approved type sub-drain shall be
installed with every shower sub-pan or lining. Each such sub-drain shall be
of the type that sets flush with the sub-base and shall be equipped with a
clamping ring or other device to make a tight connection between the lining
and the drain. The sub-drain shall have weep holes into the waste line. The
weep holes located in the subdrain clamping ring shall be protected from
clogging.

*Lead and copper sub-pans or linings shall be insulated from all conducting
substances other than their connecting drain by fifteen (15) pound (6.8 kg)
asphalt felt or its equivalent and no lead pan or liner shall be constructed
of material weighing less than four (4) pounds per square foot (19.5 kg/m2).
Copper pans or liners shall be at least No. 24 B & S Gauge (0.02 inches)
(0.5 mm). Joints in lead pans or liners shall be burned. Joints in copper
pans or liners shall be soldered or brazed. Plastic pans shall not be coated
with asphalt based materials."

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Grumpyplumber

LOL...dam tile guys.
Copper is the BEST material for shower pans!
We use it for water pipes...right?
There are newer types of shower pans...Kerdi for example, but copper is traditionally the favorite choice, specifically on high end or custom jobs.
You never saw a copper pan done before?
Granted with copper prices as they are, not the big hit with homeowners when you quote a price of 500-1000 just for the pan, but copper is old school, tried-tested-true.

KillerToiletSpider

Copper pans are illegal in Illinois, Chloraloy and lead are both accepted, I usually use lead.

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Bill_Vincent

Hey Grumpy-- Believe it or not New England and New York are the last places in the country that still use a copper pan. Oh, and by the way--

You got NE covered, so meet some friends of mine:

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Grumpyplumber

HIS specs are the CMR # 248...MA plumbing code.
Thats all well and good for states that are under UPC, or IRC.


This is MAss, CMR 248, the plumber is doing what the inspector will call for.
I can just see the homeowner going to the plumber and asking why he didn't adhere to code.
I find a bit of humor that a tile guy from another state could actually have any form of influence over a homeowners approach to a plumber in this state.

Bill_Vincent

KTS-- that surprises me. I thought lead pans were only found in New York any more!

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Grumpyplumber

That Jeeter fella is sooooo purdy.
My wife tells me he has a fragrance out with avon now.