Shower Base

C.C.R.

Hey guys, I'm trying to find the "industry standard" for preparing a shower base for tile. I got to my site today to frame for the shower and it turns out the plumber had already installed a copper pan for the shower. There is no sloped base under this pan which, according to veteran tile setter and multi-author Mike Byrne, there should be. The way I see it the procedure is something like this:

1. sloped sub-base (1/4" per foot)
2. copper pan (which according to M Byrne should also be painted with roofing tar or equivelant)
3. second sloped mud base
4. floor tile (after walls)

By the way this shower is in a the basement of an old Brownstone so we are on cement.
Also, do I need to leave my cement board off the shower floor any to avoid any water wicking? I haven't started this yet so if the above procedure is wrong, no harm done. But I would appreciate any advice you veterans have to offer.

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MattCoops

What's the need for the copper pan between mud jobs?

I wrote up a little article about mudding a shower pan for tile installation

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Matt with Cupan Custom Tile & Paint of Lowell, Massachusetts
Design and installation of ceramic tile and natural stone for floor, wall, and countertops
(978) 601-8774 | cupantile@gmail.com | view tile pictures and more

C.C.R.

Well, without talking to the HO first, I'm assuming the plumber for one reason or another talked him into the copper pan. I'm not doing any of the subbing so this was something that was just there one day. I'll talk to the HO in the AM so I can ask him then.
Thanks

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Complete Custom Remodeling
"When Quality is Top Priority"
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Tileguytodd

Matts article is well done and follows the TCA's detail on building a Shower receptor (although Photo's would be helpful to the DIY and remodeling contractor's Matt )

If you are going to do Showers, OR any tilework for that matter, I HIGHLY reccomend getting your hands on a Current Tile Council Of America Installation Handbook.

This will provide detailed information on the proper methods and Materials required for ANY situation you run across ( ok about 99.5 % of them anyways )

The first thing you will find when reading through a handbook for the first time is HOW MUCH YOU DONT KNOW about tilework.......This is the beginning and a first step towards a much larger world.........You will also find out how much retailers DONT KNOW about Tile Installations.

Of all the advice ive handed out online over the many years Ive been Moderating over at the JB site, this is the one piece of advice that has done the most good to our semi pro and pro population.........I reccomend you take this advice......GET THE BOOK!!!
Email Literature@Tileusa.com

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Tilewerks
Tile and Stone Contracting
Warba,MN 55793

Bud Cline

.....and just so Tileguytodd doesn't have to prostitue himself I will add that the book (TYW) aledgedly written by John Bridge would be an asset to any tileguys library. "Tile Your World" is an excellent offering to the tile installation industry.

I would recommend that every installer also purchases Tile Your World. In fact there is a nice article in TYW written by Tileguytodd.

Like John Bridge always says: If you are going to install tile then go buy the book.

firemike

Tile Your World is a great book! John also wrote a book on Kerdi waterproofing membrane installations, once you use Kerdi (or a similar product) you will probably forever change the way you do showers, I did. So much easier, and the chance of a failure are reduced considerably if you follow protocols.

__________________
-Mike-

C.C.R.

Hey matt, I finally got to read that article you wrote about shower pan. Well done. So basicaly the plumber sold the customer on a copper pan instead of "rubber" liner. And, after reading the article, this plumber did it wrong because the hole thing is about 6" tall all the way around. I was on another forum and the moderator (Mike Byrne) had written a few books on tiling (has about 35 yrs. exp.) He said under that copper pan needs to be a sloped mud bed as well. Now, where he has made it only 6" tall can I just run some rubber membrane above it? Overlapping it of course. And using the drain sealant?

thanks Mat judging by your article and your website you really seem to know what your talking about.
Oh by the way, in the article you say don't screw through the bottom 6" of membrane. But wouldn't that mean the bottom 6" of your cement board is just sorta floating there. Do you use another means to fasten the bottom of board to wall?

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Complete Custom Remodeling
"When Quality is Top Priority"
www.completecustomremodeling.com

css

Everything sounds good to me except one thing you definetly want to cover the copper pan with tar or something. As i learned years ago as a young app. the alkaly in the mortor is corrosive to copper. So if you must use that material i would take steps to avoid deteriation

troubleseeker

Very true, any time we have demoed an old leaking shower, we found a deteriorated copper or lead pan that had not been isolated from the morter bed. We have gone over to membranes in all of our tile showers, instead of the metal pans.

troubleseeker

The first mud job is to establish the drain slope for the copper pan (or what ever the waterproofing membrane is) to guide any leaking water towards the tile drain hub. The slope on the second morter bed is to establish the finish drain slope for the tile work. Unfortunately, today most jobs do not get the primary slope under the waterproof membrane, mostly pvc today, and set directly on the slab or wood sub floor) so any water that gets to the pan will just puddle under the morter bed, and eventually cause a problem.

In the quest for faster and cheaper, this is just another example of a finer point of a trade that has been lost. Now I must rant about a couple of my other pet peeves.

1. Roofing and sheetmetal work, not a crew of half assed shingle
nailers, but a guy who knows how to form and solder flashings at
critical areas,instead of believing that every roof job is done
with twenty pieces of off the shelf base flashing and a case of
roofing cement.
2. A carpenter who knows how to install lap siding correctly ,
so that courses line up with the tops and bottoms of
windows, instead of notching around them and looking
like vinyl siding.
3.Trim guys who understand that it is their job to "produce"
woodwork that is pleasing to the eye in all aspects...proportions,
height alignments, spacing, visual relations to other building
elements that are in front of, behind, or next to whatever
they are installing, etc. This means you need more than a miter
saw and a nail gun, and will have to do more than pick up
any size of wood laying around and nail it somewhere.

And the list could go on. Yes, I am admittedly anal retentive, and my handle "troubleseeker" describes my job look. Always looking
to head off the "me first, screw everyone after me" attitude that will cause trouble for everyone that follows.

Thanks for that guys, maybe I can skip counseling this week now

C.C.R.

Thanks for the replies guys, now I have to present this to the customer in an educated manner. And be able to explain with absolute certainty, why this copper pan has to come out(if it does) if only to tar the bottom and create a sloped base for the copper pan. But when I put a flat bottomed pan on a sloped base isn't there a chance the pan will become distorted? The reason I say I need to be certain is knowing this HO he probably dished out a pretty penny for the copper without batting an eye. Also the plumber put a copper pan in an alcove in the wall(that will be used for soap, shampoo,etc.) But he screwed it right to the studs. Before the wall was waterproofed with tarpaper. That's what makes me think he was just throwing stuff in to make a buck.. Again this HO doesn't question anything. I keep telling him sometimes he needs to. Not with me though just kidding.

__________________
Complete Custom Remodeling
"When Quality is Top Priority"
www.completecustomremodeling.com

MattCoops

The bottom portion of backerboard will be held back to the studs by the portland and sand mix that you'll have level around the perimeter of the mud pan.

__________________
Matt with Cupan Custom Tile & Paint of Lowell, Massachusetts
Design and installation of ceramic tile and natural stone for floor, wall, and countertops
(978) 601-8774 | cupantile@gmail.com | view tile pictures and more