Kerdi VS Hydro Ban

 
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Old 02-07-2011, 06:36 PM   #1
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Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


I have been a Kerdi fan for a couple years and dont use anything else, But have been intrigued by the ease of the Hydro Ban.

My only Beef with the Kerdi is the unflat surface that it produces on the overlaps of the seams.
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Old 02-07-2011, 06:41 PM   #2
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


Half dozen of one, 6 of the other.....


Liquid membranes are harder to get fully MIL thickness coverage in corners.

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Old 02-07-2011, 07:45 PM   #3
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


Cure time, consistent mil thickness, shelf life, time to flood test, time to tile are some disadvantages to liquid membranes I can think of. I'm sure Dan will be along soon with his Laticrete underoos and flip-flop superhero outfit on to smite me
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:02 PM   #4
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


I have been using Kerdi since it came out. Still use it today for showers but have switched to hydroban for tub surrounds.

Both have good and bad points!

Nice to see a discussion on which product to use, not, should we waterproof?
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Old 02-08-2011, 06:03 PM   #5
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


The question of whether or not to waterproof should never be asked by any kind of professional. IMO

The DIY channels have done a great job of NOT showing the right way!
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Old 02-08-2011, 08:21 PM   #6
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


I have done many showers and tub surrounds over the years and up until 6 months ago, none of them had any kerdi or hydro ban.

Now just yesterday we gutted a master bathroom that was built in 1987. It had durrock or equivalent cement board that was available at the time in the tub surround.

The corners weren't sealed, I'm not even sure the seams were taped or thinsetted over. and guess what, ZERO water damage behind it, ZERO mold behind it. the cement board had 4x4 tiles on it and I doubt the grout was sealed on a yearly basis. The only part where water had infiltrated was where the tub/floor met and some water must have overflowed out of the tub or from around the curtain. but the studs and drywall/insulation behind the tile/durrock were in perfect condition.

So I ask this question, what is the REAL purpose of putting hydroban(hundreds of dollars for a large 5 gal. bucket) or redguard (130 bucks for 3.5 gallons) over the cement boards?

I can see it for a shower stall maybe where there more water hitting the lower portions of the tile but I still don't see how much water is really getting through the grout and is it enough to really do any damage? We saw no signs that any moisture ever made it through the grout and if it did, it did nothing to the durrock. so for 23 years of showers in this home, the lack of water proofing did nothing.

I'm open to new ideas, so please tell me why water proofing membranes or coatings must be applied to cement board or other tile backers?
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Old 02-08-2011, 08:38 PM   #7
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


Quote:
Originally Posted by ApgarNJ View Post
I'm open to new ideas, so please tell me why water proofing membranes or coatings must be applied to cement board or other tile backers?
Do you want to do every job HOPING nothing bad happens?

Sure, I grew up as a kid in the car with my parents and no seat belt.
I probably have eaten under cooked eggs.
I never heard of a smoke detector in the 70's.

This is about 15-17 years old:


I have NEVER pulled a shower out that didn't have mold...a lot of it most of the time.
"curb":


Fiberglass surround:


The point is, it can happen. According to MANY other remodelers, it happens a lot.

For a $60 tub of Hydro Ban and some labor...why wouldn't you waterproof?
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Old 02-08-2011, 08:46 PM   #8
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


I understand Angus. I'm trying to figure out why this tub has zero mold, zero issues and it was used every single day by two people for 23 plus years.

If it's drywall, then I understand but most of that is from wicking water up where the drywall meets the tub/shower base etc.

it's not just about the 60 dollars in hydro, it's your time to do several coats and wait for it to dry. I think with curbs, the problem there is bad building practices and too many fasteners through the vinyl pan or whatever is used to cover the curb.

as I stated, for a full tiled shower with floor, I can totally understand water proofing but for tub surrounds is it really necessary? is the durrock, nexGen going to deteriorate and rot if it gets a minute amount of moisture to it?

next question, can red guard be used over next gen and will it be better than doing nothing at all? I can't get hydro-ban for this job.

I value what you say and you know that but I just can't help but wonder why some jobs look like your pictures and others can look perfect with zero mold/rot like the one we just ripped out yesterday? is simply the lack of waterproofing or is it something else that someone screwed up on that contributed to the mold/rot? In my last post, I was mostly referring to tub surrounds over shower stalls.
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Old 02-08-2011, 08:51 PM   #9
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


Quote:
Originally Posted by ApgarNJ View Post
I can see it for a shower stall maybe where there more water hitting the lower portions of the tile but I still don't see how much water is really getting through the grout and is it enough to really do any damage? We saw no signs that any moisture ever made it through the grout and if it did, it did nothing to the durrock. so for 23 years of showers in this home, the lack of water proofing did nothing.
I will agree that waterproofing a tub surround that has tile on concrete board is a little overkill, however, none of my customers seem to mind to pay for the added protection. I also use spectralock on every job and doubt much moisture will even make it behind the tiles, but, better safe than sorry!
I will add that I build recessed soap/shampoo niches in every job and they definately need to be waterproofed
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Old 02-08-2011, 08:58 PM   #10
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


You cannot put a blanket statement around waterproofing. Each situation will occur for its own reason. Can an install have RedGard, Hydro Ban, Kerdi, etc and still mold? Yep. First things first; install your products correctly.

I do a lot of tub surrounds in an apartment complex. Each unit is built slightly different so I don't stock any kind of wall board. I have used Green Eboard, Permabase, DensShield, etc. As a bare minimum, I would use DensShield with a liquid membrane over the seems and screw holes. Typically, I'll use Permabase and a liquid over everything.

On one hand, the old installer did each surround cheaply because "they are just apartment tub surrounds." But you see, they are no longer getting the business. I have sold the property manager on maintenance free surrounds. Each unit also gets the full Schluter profile treatment so there's no caulk either.

No caulk to maintain, waterproofed surrounds.....those units are never going to need another remodel in my life time or perhaps the build's shell either.

Do you see why you build for the worst case? Getting lucky is not a philosophy I could for a wet location.
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Old 02-08-2011, 09:00 PM   #11
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


no niches on this job thank god. they are time consuming. Just a few nice corner shelves. we are using spectralock also on this job.
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Old 02-08-2011, 09:06 PM   #12
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


thanks angus.

is there any way to use a schluter or equivalent profile where the tile/tub meet without using kerdi? I can use redguard on this job, but I don't see how to get around caulking at the tub/tile by using Next Gen durrock, our local stores don't have permabase or denshield. I feel better about using a permabase or durrock over a gypsum core board like denshield even if it's meant for that. doesn't give me a good long term feeling.
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Old 02-08-2011, 09:20 PM   #13
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


Again, each tub/wall combo will be different. I get lucky with the apartments as the cast iron tub flange is flat right to the studs. I can drop CBU right onto the flange, liquid membrane and then install the Schluter Dilex-AS. If there is a tiny gap, you can fiberglass tape, liquid membrane and Dilex-AS.

Kerdi-Fix has finally dropped enough to make it a viable replacement for silicone. If you have a 3/16" gap, you could fill with KF and then drop the Dilex.

Each situation will take some creativity.


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Old 02-08-2011, 09:34 PM   #14
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


I thought that the Dilex could only be used with kerdi. The cast tub was just installed on this job today and we installed the drywall/durrock where all the tile goes. there is a 4' high tile wainscot around the room. I planned on siliconing between the durrock and the tub flange which we are sitting on top of. So it's ok to push the dilex right up against a liquid membrane? that has dried?
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Old 02-08-2011, 09:41 PM   #15
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


The Dilex-AS is just a replacement for the final caulk bead you would typically run between finished tile and tub deck.
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Old 02-09-2011, 04:41 AM   #16
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


I wish more schluter profiles were available in stores. the HD near me sells some of their metal corner or termination profiles but I don't think they have dilex there. I have to check today and see. I'm going to use redguard on this particular shower as a safety measure and do 2 coats. I hope I can find the dilex, because that is the worst part of a tub surround is the caulk at the bottom where it meets the tub.
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Old 02-09-2011, 06:08 AM   #17
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


Angus, 2 questions... Do you have any actual pictures to show? Id like to see how those get finished off (stop at end of tub or wrap around skirt to floor)

Does any sealant get used where the dilex meets the tub skirt (underneath)?
I think those are interesting pieces, I've looked at them but have read much about them... so far, I've only used the transition strips at doorways.
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Old 02-09-2011, 06:22 AM   #18
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


very funny precisson very funny. To be homest both are great products. i like liquid because it is easier for me to deal with and such. I have done maybe 5 kerdi showers . But yes thickness is key and doing the entire stall is as well. Alot of people think they can liquid the bottom 3 ft up and the pan. Also liquid does require some dry time. kerdi pretty much does not. The saddest part of the whole thing is LATICRETE has not come out with a drain yet. And i do my shower using a kerdi drain with a LATICRETE product.


now back to reading the novel above.
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Old 02-09-2011, 06:30 AM   #19
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


Quote:
Originally Posted by opiethetileman
very funny precisson very funny. To be homest both are great products. i like liquid because it is easier for me to deal with and such. I have done maybe 5 kerdi showers . But yes thickness is key and doing the entire stall is as well. Alot of people think they can liquid the bottom 3 ft up and the pan. Also liquid does require some dry time. kerdi pretty much does not. The saddest part of the whole thing is LATICRETE has not come out with a drain yet. And i do my shower using a kerdi drain with a LATICRETE product.

now back to reading the novel above.
What do you do with the extra kerdi band and corner pieces that come with the drain?? You must have a stock pile of that
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Old 02-09-2011, 06:32 AM   #20
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Re: Kerdi VS Hydro Ban


see I use both hydroban and hydrobarrier. Also have built kerdi showers as well. and the last picture shows kerdi can be used as a cape as well. The first picture is for precisson that is my team blue head gear


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