Grout Width Query.

Nick S.

The floor has lots of broken tile pieces of varying sizes.The grout lines are 1 1/4 at the largest line (some lines are as small as 1/2 inch). Should i get some sanded grout, and mix in 4 lbs of silica sand per 25lb bag to bring its ability to 1 1/4? Or is there any other grout that will do well on this floor with such a wide range of grout line widths?

MattCoops

dont understand

all grout lines should be same size

Ive never in my life heard of a grout line bigger than a half inch
1 and 1/4 ???

rip up all the tile
snap reference lines
and tile using tile spacers to equally set straight grout lines
grout
clean
seal

__________________
Matt with Cupan Custom Tile & Paint of Lowell, Massachusetts
Design and installation of ceramic tile and natural stone for floor, wall, and countertops
(978) 601-8774 | cupantile@gmail.com | view tile pictures and more

Tscarborough

You should mix your own grout, using a type S masonry, as though your mosaic were stone instead of traditional tile. I would add acrylic fortifier as well, then seal the crap out of it.

MattCoops

now I understand you have a smashed tile floor mosaic

just mixing regular sanded grout may cause some cracks in finished grout

id try making a more liquified grout mixture, and grout a small area, wait and check out for any cracks

__________________
Matt with Cupan Custom Tile & Paint of Lowell, Massachusetts
Design and installation of ceramic tile and natural stone for floor, wall, and countertops
(978) 601-8774 | cupantile@gmail.com | view tile pictures and more

kevjob

what about prism or spectralock?

__________________
Kevin
Basement Finishing Highlands Ranch Colorado
Littleton Colorado, Basement Remodeling
Kitchen Remodeling Denver

Nick S.

Excellent Rcommendation mr. Scarborough. Can i find all of those materials at the home depot or lowes? And what type of sealer should i put on when i am finished? Do I mix the Acrylic fortifier into the type S masonry? Also if i have to mix it all up... what should the consistency look like when i am done? Thanks a ton.

Nick S.

Also, do i apply the type S the way i would grout?

Bud Cline

HOLY COW GUYS!

The tile installation described is known as "rubble" and isn't all that rare. Any sanded modified grout (right out of the bag) will work just fine. If you go to mixing your own grout you're not going to get a good color consistency.

The trick to finishing the wider grout joints is to wait longer to finish the grout then use a damp fiberous pad to do so, finishing up with a damp sponge as per usual. Don't get ahead of yourself!

You won't get rid of all the haze with the initial cleaning so be prepared to go back the next day and do a final clean after the wide joints stop releasing portland. Use a water and white vinegar (50/50) solution to clean the surface then neutralize it with just clean water afterward.

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Mike Finley

Hey Bud, you can do this with grout right out of the bag? I always thought you had to mix in some clean sand with the sanded grout to help it for big grout areas like this. Don't some of the grout manufacturers even tell you how to do this on their bags or websites?

Nick S.

Based on all of your good ideas and advice i have decided to try this...... I will add acrylic fortifier to regular store bought sanded grout, and grout some of the wider "lines" on the floor. I will let this sit for 1 day, and return to see if it cracked. Do you guys approve of this? Thank you all.

Bud Cline

I have no idea what may be printed on grout bags but in my thinking these grout formulas are arrived at due to some type of R&D by somebody somewhere. To add sand to a premixed (dry) grout altering the original recipe would only serve to weaken the mixture I'm thinking.

I have made sanded grout from unsanded grout in the past but I would still have the same fears doing that.

I guess I'm not understanding why additional sand would be needed to fill larger gaps if it is also going to violate the integrity of the grout mixture to begin with. Basically the same as adding too much water diluting the grout and weakening it at the same time. There is nothing wrong with using the grout straight from the bag as it is intended to be used, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I have done many rubble-tile-installations over the years and the only problem I remember is when I tried to clean and finish the grout surface while it was still too soft. This only dishes-out the grout. If I wait for the grout to become more firm than I usually would then use a flat fiber pad to wash the grout it works great.

Another SIDE BAR: (just for fun) If one tends to trust what is stated on product bags one can be seriously victimized by the product manufacturer from time to time.

It seems that just lately some thinset bags were misprinted and the instructions said to mix a fifty pound bag of thinset with two gallons of water......yada yada yada. In fact, most fifty pound bags of thinset only require about 4-4-1/2 quarts, certainly not eight quarts as the bag stated.

This information came from a DIY website when the DIY'er was having a problem with thinset that was much too thin and unworkable to say nothing of the weakening effect this would have on the product. He was following the instructions on the bag. Another (pro) participant of that website was also (co-incidentally) an employee of the distributor and was able to varify the mis-printed bag. The manufacturer was contacted and their attitude was "sorry 'bout that" we are correcting the problem over the phone when the customers call us. Now I ask you, does this seam reasonable to you? You can't believe everything even the maker says on the bag.

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Mike Finley

Damn Bud, it sounds like you don't have too much respect for the manufacturers!

So is there no limit to a grout line width using sanded grout? I was always under the impression that you could do up to about 3/4 wide lines with sanded grout out of the bag, and after that you had to do something else. I say under the impression because I've never actually faced this situation so I have no personal experience with it.

Bud Cline

I have no problem with any of the industries manufacturers for the most part, where would I be without them!

Some of the things I do have a problem with that are manufacturer related are Telephone Techies that have no field experience and are handed a binder/CPU to answer questions from when a telephone inquiry is made. Even that isn't real bad until the guy/gal starts to blow smoke and tries to bluff their way through something they don't have an answer to.

I also have a problem with the big time manufacturers that supply the big boxes but refuse to see to it that the big box employees are trained in the use of the products that everyone profits from. Obviously the big boxes don't care if the information their employees are dispensing is correct and accurate or not but the product makers damn sure should care.

There are a few manufacturers that spend many dollars annually setting up schooling for anyone that's interested but there are a lot more manufacturers that don't.

Even the manufacturers Road Techies are lacking in overall industry understanding of standards and practices. All some of them seem to know about is what they read in the company binder last night in their motel room, cramming for today's seminar in the warehouse of some flooring store somewhere.

Nope, I have no problem with any of the manufacturers but I do have more respect for some than others. I do believe that most of them could do a better job of supporting training of the people they depend on to install their products.

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TO OUR VALUED CUSTOMERS:
Please manage your children.
Any children unattended throughout the day
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Mike Finley

Bud, name some name please. Who are the manufacturers who are doing a good job? Thanks.

Bud Cline

At the top of the list is Schluter Systems. Schluter conducts regular classes at the CTEF (Ceramic Tile Education Foundation) on a come-one-come-all basis, you get there and Schluter pays for everything else. They also have regular presentations all over the U.S.

Laticrete International. Laticrete is ever present throughout the country with their informational events on a regular basis. By the way, Laticrete's founder Henry Rothberg will be inducted into the WFCA's Hall of Fame shortly if it hasn't happened already. Even H.R. Jr. has been known to participate on websites such as this from time to time.

Since I live in a remote area I can't expect big-time manufacturers to spend too much money in an area that simply doesn't represent a huge sales volume, I understand that. But what the manufacturers don't seem to understand is that all rural sales are not too far behind big city sales and may even surpass them in some cases.

Mapei is also quick to offer face to face talks and training.

In thirteen years in this area I have never seen TEC, Custom, USG, Hydroment, C-Cure, Bonsal, hell Bonsal even contracts with packagers in Nebraska to package and distribute their setting materials.

A few years ago I personally co-sponsored a seminar with The Ceramic Tile Education Foundation and the presentation was given in Omaha, Dave Gobis came for me and presented the seminar himself, it was an overwhelming success. This area is starved for information and glad to get anything they can in the way of training. The sad thing is that the greatest attendance at that particular offering was independent installers for the most part, there was not a single retailer represented and I personally sent out over two hundred invitations to retail outlets.

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Mike Finley

Thanks Bud.

Tscarborough

I am not a tile guy, and have no information on the components of pre-mixed tile grout. I can only assume that it is formulated for a 1/4" joint which has different requirements than a 3/8 to 1-1/2" joint. Those width joints are common for stone flatwork, however, and the properties of what I recommended are well known.

As for color consistancy, it is done every day on projects that include hundreds of thousands of square feet of work extending over every season and possible climatical condition with dozens of masons somehow achieving a consistant color.

Bud Cline

Tscarborough,

My comments weren't intended to be a personal attack and I agree with what you said and have myself done this type of thing for years.

Among other areas I have been dealing with DIY Forums for years and I try not to get too sophisticated in my answers not that I have sophisticated answers but I do have thirty years of professional experience in the building trades and more specifically ceramic and stone.

Most folks aren't aware that there are things such as "Type S" masonry products, or Type N or Type O or Type anything. The original post was offered by Nick S whom describes himself as a "Handyman". I don't want to appear condenscending but I guess I am guilty of qualifying Nick in my mind and based on the question I assumed a lower level of experience, again nothing personal intended.

I always try to suggest and recommend proven products that a person can buy off-the-shelf and for me to launch into a Type-S masonary scenario isn't something I would readily do. I try to keep it simple. Masonry products that are made for above ground applications and below grade applications and windy applications and the like are just getting way too involved most of the time in my estimation. I'm not saying I'm right I'm saying I try to keep it simple.

For a novice to buy Type-S and buy the correct sand (not just any sand would be recommended) then to also buy powdered pigments then to mix each batch with consistency just isn't the thing for me to suggest to anyone. This takes a lot of experience. If a guy is working in his own backyard that's one thing, but to be doing the job for a client that has a certain expectation level and the jobber expects to be paid for his performance then he should be using products that have a predictable result and not experimenting with a clients property.

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TO OUR VALUED CUSTOMERS:
Please manage your children.
Any children unattended throughout the day
will be given a Free Mountain Due at our regular quiting time.

Tscarborough

You must have missed the other posts pertaining to this project. One batch would be more than adequate (70 SqFt), and I have more faith in the DIY'er and handyman than you do, I suppose, probably from dealing with them dailly. I do not take it personally, at any rate.