Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick

 
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Old 02-10-2012, 11:10 AM   #1
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Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


Sorry to be slightly off topic, but I have a question please...What is the best peel and stick crack iso/anti-fracture for the money?

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Old 02-10-2012, 12:45 PM   #2
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


Yes, it was so off topic, I just created a thread for you discussion.

Question. Why does it have to be a peel and stick?

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Old 02-10-2012, 01:46 PM   #3
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


speed of installation. Peel & stick membranes cut our installation time in half. Especially using a true primerless adhesive.

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Old 02-10-2012, 01:57 PM   #4
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


So you already use them. Which do you use?

I'm only familiar with Mapeguard 2 and that still requires SM Primer before installing. I'm not sure how much you save either with time (labor) or money (material cost) between that method of just using a liquid like Mapelastic CI.
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Old 02-11-2012, 01:12 PM   #5
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


We've tried the asphalt based membranes, but prefer the newer, cleaner stuff (Speed Flex and GreenSkin). We especially like GreenSkin due to it being 100% clean (and Green - no VOC's like the asphalt stuff). It is also primerless, so it only requires a clean substrate. Speed Flex is O.K. but it does not address any moisture management issues. They all seemed to be priced about the same anyway...I was just wondering if there are other (preferably clean & green) peel & stick's out there, that we should be aware of, other than the one's mentioned.

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Old 02-11-2012, 02:36 PM   #6
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


Quote:
Originally Posted by Birgit View Post
peel and stick ... the money?
You just scared me away.

Just paint over whatever you have down in your home now. They make disposable rollers that are pretty good for the money.

Off topic, but some professional feedback:
I've never heard much of a market for anything so green in CO--and have the price point so much of a concern--so I looked at your profile to find out where this market is. I"m always interested in new and different things and moreso, how things have changed.

Do you know the website for the business you manage is down? http://n/a doesn't go to anything. I figured you should know that, but I couldn't tell you because there's no such company listed in CO as required for an LLC. You may want to get that paperwork in order because if you use "LLC" it's gotta be registered in the state.

Hopefully you'll come back and get this information as if you're trying to advertise, you're making it hard for customers/prospects to find you.

Last edited by CO762; 02-11-2012 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 02-11-2012, 02:43 PM   #7
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


I was suckered into one Ceramica...



Flooring Underlayment, peel and stick-forumrunner_20120211_144216.jpg

We put them in the oven at 100 degrees. It was a first and last for us.
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Old 02-11-2012, 03:18 PM   #8
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


Peel and stick underlayment for peel and stick vinyl--we could be on to something Matt. The only problem is neither of those are green--whatever that is. Come to think of it, I think sand, cement and water is about as green as a being can get. Throw in some chemicals (polymers) and even modified thinsets can be considered green. With the peel and stick, they are usually made of some form of 'rubber' and those are not green in the least bit in their manufacturing process. Just think of your vehicle's tires--what kinda mold release is needed to get them out of the mold in the first place? There are lower VOC release agents, but they aren't nearly as good, plus the cost a whole lot more, so we can throw away the price point thing. Diesel fuel used to be used a lot as a release agent in concrete and still is. OK keeping it tile related, pavers are about the only thing green as they're just clay, water and sun.

OK....digressing again. Bored....day off.....
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Old 02-11-2012, 03:23 PM   #9
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


Quote:
Originally Posted by CO762
Peel and stick underlayment for peel and stick vinyl--we could be on to something Matt. The only problem is neither of those are green--whatever that is. Come to think of it, I think sand, cement and water is about as green as a being can get. Throw in some chemicals (polymers) and even modified thinsets can be considered green. With the peel and stick, they are usually made of some form of 'rubber' and those are not green in the least bit in their manufacturing process. Just think of your vehicle's tires--what kinda mold release is needed to get them out of the mold in the first place? There are lower VOC release agents, but they aren't nearly as good, plus the cost a whole lot more, so we can throw away the price point thing. Diesel fuel used to be used a lot as a release agent in concrete and still is. OK keeping it tile related, pavers are about the only thing green as they're just clay, water and sun.

OK....digressing again. Bored....day off.....
Why stop with flooring? Peel and stick foundations, studs, drywall, paint panels, 8 ft base, vinylish siding, roofing, and aw hell why not landscaping too.
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Old 02-11-2012, 04:03 PM   #10
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


Sounds good...my checks are peel and stick too. Cash 'em fast.
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Old 02-11-2012, 07:14 PM   #11
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


CO762...you scare easily. I apologize, I did not know you were moonlighting as an investigative monitor for this site. Ever heard of a DBA?

As far as the other comments re advertising, I am pretty sure that GreenSkin and Speed Flex are direct competitors. I seriously doubt they would both be paying me a commission to make mention of their company names. Just forget I asked the question re peel & stick. It appears to be quite a point of comedy in this thread. Thanks anyway.

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Old 02-11-2012, 07:45 PM   #12
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


Quote:
Originally Posted by Birgit View Post
CO762...you scare easily.
Wasted a lot of time on occasions, been burned on occasions. But the internet is free, so I get to interact with a lot of people with no consequence/responsibility to anyone. A lot of "how to" single digit posters that come to this community for a question that a tradesman/woman in that trade should know, folks answer it, then they're never heard from again. So algore's internet seems like a natural progression to me.

Quote:
I apologize, I did not know you were moonlighting as an investigative monitor for this site. Ever heard of a DBA?
No and Yes.
If it's a "DBA" that's a trade name and has to be registered with the secretary of state and checks paid must be put into a bank account with the "DBA" on it, thus the registry requirement, per IRS rules. This is where a lot of illegals fail as GCs. They try and get a trade name in the secretary of state's office and they don't have proper ID. However, the people there can't do anything but give them their fake ID back and say "no". Dontcha just love it?

I am from the Front Range, though I used to slum in the springs and on the other side of the eisenhower during their work season. I've had working relationships with everyone from illegals to the old money in old cherry creek. So I sort of know your market very well. Like I said, I am interested in the big picture of things and how they change over time.

Quote:
...advertising, I am pretty sure that GreenSkin and Speed Flex are direct competitors.
So are you a vendor?
Really, I know I'm very direct....and I think that's a benefit for all.
I used to be in the vendor level of the food chain, so if I mention "blue sky" you may know what I'm talking about.

If not, if this is something you are thinking on doing for your own house and/or using this as a selling point for your job to homeowners.....good luck. The only people I know of that give a hoot about any BS called "green" are either affluent (leftist) people or businesses wanting some financial advantage from government financed/subsidized BS. Solara amongst a lot of others come to mind. Go east from the moustrap and before the old stapleton exit, to the right will be a commercial (warehouse) building, one that's been there forever and with one paint upgrade, it's now being sold as "green". Been a while since I've been out there, so who knows....the government probably bought it as a green investment....

Last edited by CO762; 02-11-2012 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 02-11-2012, 08:22 PM   #13
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


I have been using Whisper Mat and Dal CIM 500. Primer is cheap: $17 per gal and covers a lot specially over slab and grabs strong. Did not see anyone without primer around here.
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:27 PM   #14
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


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Primer is cheap: $17 per gal and covers a lot specially over slab and grabs strong. Did not see anyone without primer around here.
For any "coating" (surface primer covering, or binder for say, tile) to grab, there has to be an anchor profile. Drop some of that liquid rubber onto a mirror (polished surface) and some onto some bush hammered concrete. Let it cure then try and peel it off.

Wood is not only porous, but also has an anchor profile (edges sticking up like a saw blade). So the material not only goes below the surface of the wood to bond between the substrates, but the the jagged edges helps it resist lateral movement above the surface of the substrate.

(I was just told whitney houston died. Multi tasking all the time, even days off. Wonder if it was an enlarged heart).

Raw concrete doesn't have the porosity or profile of wood. Demo'ing tile on smooth concrete vs. shotblasted concrete shows the difference in adhesion. What a lot of these primed anti-fracture underlayments do is chemically "melt" the 'rubber' bottom of them, thus they semi-liquify and then can 'bond' into the smaller pores of the concrete. Chemicals. This means VOCs. Try and take off some latricrete 150 one time and you'll fully appreciate what I'm talking about.

"green" (whatever that is) cannot do this as it's not possible to blend together two different substrates, chemically. "green" isn't about chemicals (so they say). So, like I alluded to above, you must then mechanically create an anchor profile if one is interested in bonding two surfaces. This is how tile/stone used to be done if one cured concrete mind you, unless it's a floated floor. OK, should have been, but that's a different subject.

So, like I tell people, "old school is green". They just want new, high tech BS to try and replace knowledge and labor cost. I was almost about to go into the uncoupling BS, but this post has been long winded enough and dang it, whitney houston has died? There went my frank farmer gig....
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Old 02-11-2012, 11:01 PM   #15
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


Well, let's agree to disagree on a few items. Let's agree that CO762 knows a lot about tile installation, and not all that much about adhesives, and polymer science. When I speak about a PSA's on the backside of a new age peel & stick, there is NO rubber...NO asphalt...and NO VOC's. It is NOT a rubberized asphalt adhesive, heavy in VOC emissions. Instead it is a crystal clear hot melt, block copolymer, with no more solvents/VOC's than the plastic bag you line your kitchen trash can with. It is a water based-born polymer adhesive, with zero solvents. You can read the morning newspaper through the glue - if you so desire to.

The idea of turning the ashpalt based peel & stick (dinosaurs) into PSA based clean & green, next generation seems like a more progressive idea than, what did you call it, "Old School."...? Why would you "dis" a green/recycled primerless product, that emits zero solvents, that sticks much better, that installs at twice the temperature range, in half the install time, at less than half the (roll) weight, and best of all, at a competitive price.........as a lesser product - without knowing anything at all about it. You seem to be a seasoned professional CO762...that's what confuses me, as I agree with most of what you have posted, with the exception of your blind rejection of clean & green. I like my cake...buhhht I like to eat it to. Especially if I sleep tight at night knowing that the cake was low cal.

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Old 02-12-2012, 12:16 AM   #16
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


Quote:
Originally Posted by Birgit View Post
Well, let's agree to disagree on a few items.
Sounds good to me--when people all agree on one thing no one every does anything different or learns anything different.

So who are you and what is your product?

Quote:
Instead it is a crystal clear hot melt, block copolymer, with no more solvents/VOC's
How is it melted?
How is it adhered to the substrate?

Quote:
The idea of turning the ashpalt based peel & stick (dinosaurs) into PSA based clean & green, next generation seems like a more progressive idea
Oh gawd, you mentioned the "p word". Ack, barf, cough, gough, gag....

I guess seeing as you are a vendor, I need to check more into your product to truly see if it's green, whatever that is.
What is it?

Quote:
"Old School."...?
Yup. Some have been up for hundreds of years and still are in service.
No VOCs. Come to think of it, not even any chemicals. But I'm not too much of a dinosaur to not want modern conveniences and ease. I may be old, but I'm smart enough to be lazy when I can. Come to think of it, I think that's how I got to be this old.

Quote:
I agree with most of what you have posted, with the exception of your blind rejection of clean & green.
I'm not blind. I just need more information.
Here, that "green" warehouse on I70 I was telling you about. The Hilti warehouse is across the interstate from it, on the north side. They have a sign out front, but you can better tell by all the cameras and anti-car bash poles around all their entrances/doors.

Quote:
I like my cake...buhhht I like to eat it to. Especially if I sleep tight at night knowing that the cake was low cal.
Bri, you do know that oil is a wonderful thing for the human body. It keeps the joints lubed, provides energy. Fish oil can be very healthy, so enjoy a salmon steak with a olive oil and dill glaze, covered in butter of course. All topped off with a left hand beer......
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:59 AM   #17
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


Fish oil can be very healthy, so enjoy a salmon steak with a olive oil and dill glaze, covered in butter of course. All topped off with a left hand beer......



linky:

THANKS, patrick
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:44 AM   #18
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


We carry mostly flooring & building envelope materials from a handful of manufacturers. We are fairly small, so we try to focus our line on things that are a little new and innovative. I can send you a couple of job pics and/or a data sheets, to review, as a private message, if you'd like CO762. Our crack & sound control line is pretty interesting. I don't want to come off like we are billboarding on this site. Please let me know if you'd care to view any literature. Happy Sunday!

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Old 02-12-2012, 09:59 PM   #19
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


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THANKS, patrick
I"m afraid to click the run button on that vid as my wife is next to me....
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:19 PM   #20
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Re: Flooring Underlayment, Peel And Stick


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I don't want to come off like we are billboarding on this site. Please let me know if you'd care to view any literature.
I am always interested in finding out about different things, but I think one of the benefits of a board like this is professionals visit and as a group, can be exposed to new/old ways of doing things and/or products, then get into a debate, or even a cussin and spittin match.

I don't know the requirements, if there even are any, for such things, so you might want to check with Angus. If everything is OK, then post it here for all of us tile slugs to see.

You did pique my curiousity with the hot melt thing. Sounds like your product 'softens' the 'rubber' mat as a way of adhesion, much like, say latricrete's primer does to their 150--which I do very much like--and I'm sure is 'chemical'.

Quote:
Happy Sunday!
Thanks. It really REALLY sucked as I trimmed out an OCCUPIED house with absolute GARBAGE they got at menards. A price point only vendor selling their stuff at a 10% discount is really scary for the installer--yeah, I have the splinters to prove it. Yes, this was finished trim. Gawd I absolutely hate menards.

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