First Time Schluter System Use.

 
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:19 AM   #1
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First Time Schluter System Use.


Hey everyone,

Glad to have stumbled on to this site, I have been setting tile floors for a few years with handful of back splashes and commercial bathroom walls each year. Most was commercial, but now that I have started my own business been getting calls about showers. I have lost some bids because my price is higher due to that I have to sub out the shower pan waterproofing. My tile distributor has sold me a 48'' X 48'' shower kit, but I'm not quite sold on it.

Going to be installing it in my bath, see how that goes before I charge a customer. It is a total gut on the second floor and on OSB. Been reading through the post and see that there are some controversy with the system. I guess I have a few questions about what the handbook says and would like to hear first hand experiences from people who have used it.
1. Modified or un-modified over osb, handbook says non, but I have 3/4 OSB Tru-flor and this doesn't seem right to me.

2. The wall will have a few nooks for shampoo shelves and there is a glass block window in the stall, I have always used a liquid membrane (mapei aqua defense or redguard) over cbu to waterproof this. Can a liquid membrane be used with the kerdi. I was thinking kerdi the walls and use the liquid in the voids with the liquid overlapping the kerdi, thinking at least 2''.

3. Or could set the pan and drain, kerdiband the inside corner and kerdi the pan, kerdi fix the top of the ban, and then mapei hpg for rest of the shower.

Any input would be appreciated. I realize that mixing systems is not the best practice for warranty issues and what not. I'm just trying to think of ways to get around the problems I have been reading about, the most seems to be build up in the corners with the kerdi. I definitely will be learning how to build a mud pan this summer when it warms up outside. There are a lot of good systems to learn.
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:19 PM   #2
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


I mix products all the time. I use a liquid membrane over cbu because I can use modified. I use kerdi on the pan because it gives me piece of mind. I use kerdi band on all of my inside corners to help eliminate grout cracking. I paint right over my kerdi with Duraguard (Bostik's waterproofer). This also eliminates build up of kerdi layers in niches and inside corners.

I am sure neither Schluter nor Bostik would stand behind my method, but I don't care. My showers are rock solid and will stand the test of time I'm sure.

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Old 01-30-2012, 12:31 PM   #3
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


Josh-

I use a "hybrid" method of liquid and fabric myself because of the build up. Also on a recent job we had a change to remove the bullnose and install solid slabs to accept the new shower doors. I used liquid because patching the KERDI with the over lap was just not flat enough.

I am thinking of using primarily liquid for all wall water proofing. I would use it on the pans as well but i like using the Schluter pans. Plus I have a mile of KERDI fabric in storage

I like Noble SEAL TS a lot but only if I am bonding it with the glue. That stuff is THICK.
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:39 PM   #4
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


The advice I'm about to relay is from my own experience. I have installed quite a bit of what you're asking of and these are some of the methods I have been successful with. These are not Schluter recommendations.

1. Modified or un-modified over osb, handbook says non, but I have 3/4 OSB Tru-flor and this doesn't seem right to me.

I would use modified to set the foam pan over wood. If they want modified for Ditra over wood, why not in this case too?

2. The wall will have a few nooks for shampoo shelves and there is a glass block window in the stall, I have always used a liquid membrane (mapei aqua defense or redguard) over cbu to waterproof this. Can a liquid membrane be used with the kerdi. I was thinking kerdi the walls and use the liquid in the voids with the liquid overlapping the kerdi, thinking at least 2''.
If you understand how Kerdi relies on over lapping to waterproof seams, you should feel very comfortable with mixing liquid onto Kerdi. I wouldn't worry about a full 2". Actually, I prefer to seal the edges of the fabric with Kerdi-Fix before over lapping with liquid.

3. Or could set the pan and drain, kerdiband the inside corner and kerdi the pan, kerdi fix the top of the ban, and then mapei hpg for rest of the shower.
Yes, you can. I'd still suggest sealing the outer edges of the Kerdi-Band with Kerdi-Fix before applying the liquid.
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Old 01-30-2012, 02:55 PM   #5
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HandyHails View Post
I mix products all the time. I use a liquid membrane over cbu because I can use modified. I use kerdi on the pan because it gives me piece of mind. I use kerdi band on all of my inside corners to help eliminate grout cracking. I paint right over my kerdi with Duraguard (Bostik's waterproofer). This also eliminates build up of kerdi layers in niches and inside corners.

I am sure neither Schluter nor Bostik would stand behind my method, but I don't care. My showers are rock solid and will stand the test of time I'm sure.

I like the idea of the inside corners and would feel more comfortable with modified thin set. Do you allow some time between setting the band, kerdi on the pan, and inside corners before you roll on the duraguard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by angus242 View Post
The advice I'm about to relay is from my own experience. I have installed quite a bit of what you're asking of and these are some of the methods I have been successful with. These are not Schluter recommendations.

1. Modified or un-modified over osb, handbook says non, but I have 3/4 OSB Tru-flor and this doesn't seem right to me.

I would use modified to set the foam pan over wood. If they want modified for Ditra over wood, why not in this case too?

2. The wall will have a few nooks for shampoo shelves and there is a glass block window in the stall, I have always used a liquid membrane (mapei aqua defense or redguard) over cbu to waterproof this. Can a liquid membrane be used with the kerdi. I was thinking kerdi the walls and use the liquid in the voids with the liquid overlapping the kerdi, thinking at least 2''.
If you understand how Kerdi relies on over lapping to waterproof seams, you should feel very comfortable with mixing liquid onto Kerdi. I wouldn't worry about a full 2". Actually, I prefer to seal the edges of the fabric with Kerdi-Fix before over lapping with liquid.

3. Or could set the pan and drain, kerdiband the inside corner and kerdi the pan, kerdi fix the top of the ban, and then mapei hpg for rest of the shower.
Yes, you can. I'd still suggest sealing the outer edges of the Kerdi-Band with Kerdi-Fix before applying the liquid.
Modified it is, I mostly use mapei so thinking ultraflex 2 under the pan and to set the tiles with, do I need to use kerabond or another non modified under the kerdi or will ultraflex 2 work. My understanding behind schluter recommendations is that a modified will not fully dry under the kerdi.
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Old 01-30-2012, 02:57 PM   #6
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


Also, thanks for the kerdi-fix tip.
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:14 PM   #7
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dan_s View Post
Modified it is, I mostly use mapei so thinking ultraflex 2 under the pan and to set the tiles with, do I need to use kerabond or another non modified under the kerdi or will ultraflex 2 work. My understanding behind schluter recommendations is that a modified will not fully dry under the kerdi.
Ask yourself this simple question:
What is so different about Kerdi that no other manufacturer of membranes requires non-modified? Not Noble, Laticrete, Mapei, Custom, Wedi, Bostik.....

The only thing is I try to give an extra day to cure before grouting, if possible. I use UltraFlex 2 to adhere NobleSeal TS. Works perfectly.
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Old 01-30-2012, 04:22 PM   #8
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by angus242 View Post
Ask yourself this simple question:
What is so different about Kerdi that no other manufacturer of membranes requires non-modified? Not Noble, Laticrete, Mapei, Custom, Wedi, Bostik.....

The only thing is I try to give an extra day to cure before grouting, if possible. I use UltraFlex 2 to adhere NobleSeal TS. Works perfectly.
I ask myself, then I asked this forum.
Other tile setters I know around here have never used the kerdi/preformed tray, and most doubt it. I only doubt the whole non-mod/mod arguement. I believe your statement, what is the difference? Should be none, so modified is what I feel most comfortable with because of past experiences.

The last concern I have is with the tray, is there any limitation on what can go on it. Want to use some nice 16" x 16" mosaic pebble on a mesh sheet for the floor and as a border around the shower a few feet up. Other than changing a trowel size from what I will use on the walls, is there any concern with drainage or damage with using a pebble floor.
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Old 01-30-2012, 04:53 PM   #9
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


Nope. Should be good to go with pebbles.
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Old 01-30-2012, 07:10 PM   #10
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by angus242 View Post
Ask yourself this simple question:
What is so different about Kerdi that no other manufacturer of membranes requires non-modified? Not Noble, Laticrete, Mapei, Custom, Wedi, Bostik.....

The only thing is I try to give an extra day to cure before grouting, if possible. I use UltraFlex 2 to adhere NobleSeal TS. Works perfectly.
Mr. Whipple.....call your office.....Angus is giving out bad advice again.
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Old 01-30-2012, 07:13 PM   #11
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HS345

Mr. Whipple.....call your office.....Angus is giving out bad advice again.
I used modified twice and it worked fine. I actually thought the modified showers turned out better. I still prefer to use the kerdi set for the warranty though...
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Old 01-30-2012, 07:20 PM   #12
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ohiohomedoctor View Post
I used modified twice and it worked fine. I actually thought the modified showers turned out better. I still prefer to use the kerdi set for the warranty though...
I do it all the time.

I actually prefer Versabond for hanging the Kerdi, and Ardex X-5 for setting tile over Kerdi. Both modified.....

Just giving Agnes a hard time.
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Old 01-30-2012, 07:22 PM   #13
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HS345

I do it all the time.

I actually prefer Versabond for hanging the Kerdi, and Ardex X-5 for setting tile over Kerdi. Both modified.....
Sure ya do...
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Old 01-30-2012, 07:28 PM   #14
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


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Sure ya do...
Were you ever able to find an Ardex supplier? I think I dropped the ball on that one for you. Sorry 'bout that.....

X-5 really is the shizzle for setting over Kerdi. Excellent non-sag, and sets up quick too.
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Old 01-30-2012, 07:30 PM   #15
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HS345

Were you ever able to find an Ardex supplier? I think I dropped the ball on that one for you. Sorry 'bout that.....

X-5 really is the shizzle for setting over Kerdi. Excellent non-sag, and sets up quick too.
No never did. I asked florida tile once and forgot about it. They just include the kerdi set with my orders. I am always looking for something better than my competition is using though. That being said sand mix should suffice :
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Old 01-30-2012, 07:33 PM   #16
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dan_s View Post
The last concern I have is with the tray, is there any limitation on what can go on it. Want to use some nice 16" x 16" mosaic pebble on a mesh sheet for the floor and as a border around the shower a few feet up. Other than changing a trowel size from what I will use on the walls, is there any concern with drainage or damage with using a pebble floor.
I've done a ton of pebbles. I'm not a fan of the kerdi pan's in general, but I especially don't like them for pebbles. I feel like I want more of a slope to my shower than the kerdi pan gives you. Make your own pan for about $20 plus latex and you can give yourself 3/8-1/2" of drop per foot. That will keep that water moving towards the drain.

FWIW I usually double up on the 3/4" subfloor in the shower for a total of 1 1/2" of plywood. Just my personal preference.
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Old 01-30-2012, 07:35 PM   #17
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HandyHails

I've done a ton of pebbles. I'm not a fan of the kerdi pan's in general, but I especially don't like them for pebbles. I feel like I want more of a slope to my shower than the kerdi pan gives you. Make your own pan for about $20 plus latex and you can give yourself 3/8-1/2" of drop per foot. That will keep that water moving towards the drain.

FWIW I usually double up on the 3/4" subfloor in the shower for a total of 1 1/2" of plywood. Just my personal preference.
1/2 per foot is way too much. I dont even think that would pass inspection around here.
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Old 01-30-2012, 07:40 PM   #18
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


Depends on the size and shape of the shower. My point is that pebbles have a tendency to really create some valleys on the shower floor that will hold water. 2x2 mosaics are another story entirely.
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Old 01-30-2012, 09:06 PM   #19
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HandyHails View Post
I've done a ton of pebbles. I'm not a fan of the kerdi pan's in general, but I especially don't like them for pebbles. I feel like I want more of a slope to my shower than the kerdi pan gives you. Make your own pan for about $20 plus latex and you can give yourself 3/8-1/2" of drop per foot. That will keep that water moving towards the drain.

FWIW I usually double up on the 3/4" subfloor in the shower for a total of 1 1/2" of plywood. Just my personal preference.
I was thinking of putting a half inch of plywood over the shower area for just some added strength. The preferred method that I have tiled on is a mud pan, but like I said I do not know how yet. This is the first time working with the schluter tray. Will the pebble floor not drain right, want to use these tiles, but don't want standing water.
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Old 01-31-2012, 12:59 AM   #20
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Re: First Time Schluter System Use.


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Mr. Whipple.....call your office.....Angus is giving out bad advice again.
Angus gets a free pass.

He has a time out button beside his laptop.

I read online Kerdi is Hydro Phobic and repels water. I also read it doesn't leak with a pinhole if you do the vortex fold.

You are suppose to use the cheapest thin set instead of premium modifieds and their is nothing thinner on the market that I know of.

Why wouldn't you use it?

Hey Greg - I got some Ardex training happening this week!

Going to get trained up on polished concrete shower floors. Nice. My Ardex rep told me they are doing some Kerdi / Ardex hybrid installs here in Vancouver and offered to give me a tour.

Now if your going to use modified thin set with Kerdi - why not use Ardex setting materials and get a warranty. Make sense to me. If Schluter voids your warranty because you use the wrong thin set - then get the warranty from the one making the thin set.

Pretty easy to do I think. Just call the Ardex team and describe your install.

JW

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