Experience = Pricing?

angus242

I mainly do kitchen remodels which means I also tile. Over the past year, I've done 5 kitchen floors, 3 back splashes and 1 bathroom wall. Since people aren't throwing themselves at me with $40k to do kitchens, I've decided to supplement with tiling floors. I know I'm not an expert but I'm confident in the work I do. I've seen MANY jobs done by "experts"....lippage galore, uneven grout lines, terrible transitions and my biggest peeve....tiling to baseboards instead of removing them. Anyway, the point is I feel I do an above average job. The question I have is how do you determine pricing based off skill level? Using fictitious numbers, if a true, experienced professional charged $15/sq ft for basic porcelain floors, what would a newbie charge? I don't think it's fair for the newer guy to charge the same because he doesn't have the experience. When you've paid your dues you deserve top dollar. A newer guy is gonna make mistakes and, in essence, is learning on the customer's dollar. So if top dollar is (fictitiously) $15/sq ft and a newbie is $6, I'd guess I'm a $9/10. I'm not fast and don't expect this to make me a living but I do believe in doing the job right. It's just I'd rather be making SOME money waiting for my next kitchen instead of sitting here typing on contractortalk.com. However, I'd like to get what I'm worth yet not overcharge for my lack of experience.
Thoughts?

send_it_all

We're both going to catch crap for this thread, but I feel if you truly do a good job, know what materials to use in specific situations and turn out a good product, why not charge what the experienced guy charges?...The right price is the highest price you can sell the job for. If the experienced guy charges $15 per s.f., why wouldn't you?. The difference will be when he is done in 3 days and it takes you 5. It will work itself out. Just make sure that if you are going to take on a job, you KNOW you will do it right. Don't "learn on the customer's dime"...it's not fair to them.

cleveman

Colonel Angus,

If you get the job, you're probably not overcharging. Your price is going to vary as you go from kitchens and baths to larger rooms. Obviously you can put down more square footage between sleeping when you are not cutting everything.

The type of tile will also obviously play a role. I'm currently installing some interlocking eight-sided mosaic and it is killing me to cut it all.

The thing which kills me is that the customer wants what they want. They choose a poor quality tile in a difficult to install format and insist on having it grouted white, even after I show them photos of grout before and after cleaning with phosphoric acid (day and night).

So I guess you (and I) need to charge for all the difficulties we are looking at, and give breaks for easy work. And install whatever the customer wants. A good question is, will that white grout sour the customer on tile forever, or will it result in a tear-out or re-grout job?

Bill_Vincent

So long as the finished product is the same quality, who cares the experience level of the guy installing the tile?

Let me ask you-- if you go into a garage to have new tires put on your truck, are you going to pay more because the owner of the shop puts them on instead of the kid? The only difference is in how long it takes, and then that difference is how much you put in your pocket for the time it takes you.

CCSowner, for those of you who don't know, is my stepson, and we had this very same conversation just a little while ago. He asked me if seeing as how he hasn't been the trade as long as me, should his prices be a little lower. My response was why-- are you giving the customer any less???

You price your work based on the finished product. That's what the customer is paying for. The rest is all on you. How quickly you DO that installation determines how much you''ll put in your pocket, not how much you charge!

__________________
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're probably right."

http://www.creativeceramicandmarble.com

angus242

OK, 2 very good lines:
"when he is done in 3 days and it takes you 5"
and
"How quickly you DO that installation determines how much you''ll put in your pocket"
That, to me makes sense. However, I was looking at it from the stand point of the last tile job I saw completed. I know what the guy charged and how much better I could have done the job. I just didn't think I could charge more than he did. So I was a bit bothered that the guy charged top dollar for a sub-par job. I don't think that's right. Unfortunately, the customer didn't know they paid $$$$$ and got $$.
So I see personally, I won't have a problem with my pricing vs. quality. Seems though, the customers are the ones getting screwed by the guys who don't care about doing quality work and THAT gives us ALL a bad name.

My conscious is cleared!

Bill_Vincent

That's EXACTLY why I spend as much time in the forums as I do-- trying to educate the public about people like that.

__________________
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're probably right."

http://www.creativeceramicandmarble.com

angus242

Well then a big THANKS goes out to guys like you and Bud. Sites like John Bridge that take the time for pros to answer customers questions are a major benefit to educating consumers on what a professional can do for the money paid!

Bill_Vincent

SHOULD do!!

__________________
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're probably right."

http://www.creativeceramicandmarble.com

ChrWright

I should think the housewives would pay more to get "Colonel Angus" along with their tile job...

__________________

Christopher Wright, CR: President @ WrightWorks, LLC/President @ Central Indiana NARI, Named to the 2010 REMODELING Big50
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Indianapolis Kitchen Remodeling Contractor - You Can Get There From Here

angus242

I stand corrected!


Colonel Angus has his price!!!!

stroventile

If it was as simple as same quality of job for the price, then great. But there are "services" offered by some that someone inexperienced or not in the industry specifically can not meet at the same price.

What can you provide for that customer besides a good tile job. If all things are equal and the difference is your a remodeler who does tile as part of your overall package, or a true tile installer/company. I would choose the tile company over you, even if you were less and the work was the same.

1.)Tile and material discounts. If you can't save them or yourself any money on tile and materials, the money they save on your installation will be spent on higher priced materials and tile.

2.)Jack of all trades - master of none theory. I can build a house, but do I claim to be a builder or a carpenter? Real tile installers have spent ridiculous amounts of time being helpers, apprentices, and setters. Every job is different and without a complete backround in tile, you may end up doing something that is not technically or mechanically sound during the installation. A good looking installation means nothing if it delaminates or buckles. Grout mixed too wet, improperly mixed mortar, improper materials used for a specific situation...etc. There are lots of ways for things to go bad for the "weekend tile setter"

3.)Recourse. If something you do damages their property or the work doesn't last or whatever..a homeowner has alot less recourse for repair or replacement with a person who is either doing it on the side or is not familiar with material and tile manufactures. If the tile job is bad, do you have the ability to obtain more tile, materials and have it re-installed or repaired?


I can paint, but I am not a painter and would not charge the same as a painter. I do not have the knowledge of installations and materials that he does. The same can be said specifically for plumbers, HVAC, and electric. If you are not trained extensively in your trade, then you can cost your customers and yourself alot of money.

The "so-called" experts you refer too are either similiar to you in experience and simply lied to the company they are working for, or they are hourly setters who only care about putting in their 8 hours and going home, or they are paid by sq.ft and just want to slap down as much as they can to get paid.

Real tile setters can chalk out the floor and know EXACTLY what kind of cuts, size and shape and where without ever setting a tile. Real tile setters do not care how quick or slow it takes, as long as it is done correctly. Just mixing up some thinset and slapping down tile that looks pleasing to the eye but is mechanically unsound.

You probably do a good and sound install, but for alot of customers, what I wrote above would all be considerations of a customer. Charge what you think is fair to you and to your potential customer and for the type of install you expect to undertake. I would rather see people who do tile on the side charge near what professionals charge, just to get rid of the people who charge well below anyone just to get the work. That effects everyones ability to be paid fairly for the work they do. So don't worry and charge near what is standard or accepted pricing in your area. If I charged customers in wisconsin the prices that are standard in Florida, the union boys and independents would be fitting me for a pair of cement boots

angus242

Well I guess I assumed a lot of what you mentioned was a standard issue. The reason I've chosen to do tile jobs myself when doing a kitchen remodel is that I have yet to find a tile contractor that I can trust. I'm sure they're out there. However, for my growing business, it is most economical for me to do it myself. I can say, I have yet to see a tile installation where the end results are better than I can offer. I know time is something I cannot compete with however, I don't care about that. If a "pro" can come in a do the job 2 days quicker yet with lesser results, where's the benefit to me or the customer? I understand if I want my business to expand, I'll eventually have to get my subs to do the work but for now, my name is all I have. I get 100% of my work from references so that is how I choose to run my business.
As for being a weekender, I'm far from that. I was asking the question about strictly tiling rates because that's something I'm looking into doing. My bad for not completing explaining myself. If I decide to do tiling as a supplement, it would be under a new business name. It would be an officially licensed business with insurance. I don't do "side jobs" for the reasons you stated.
As for resources, I've had to have them for my remodeling services. For me to competitively price a kitchen remodel, I need to have resources for much more than just tile. On top of that, I need to understand how the different materials will work with each other. I need to know how each material will work (or not) in a particular situation. A growing family with small kids needs a more durable surface than a retired couple might. Not only do I have resources, I use multiple. When I'm bidding a complete remodel, it is to my benefit to have more than one outlet. That way, I can use the suppliers against each other to get the best pricing. In Chicagoland area, there is a lot of ground to cover. If I have a customer in a particular area, it is also to my benefit to have a supplier in different areas so the customer doesn't have to drive 40 miles to tile shop.
I am doing as much as I possibly can to educate myself as I move forward. I never said I was going forward with cheese-ball side jobs to supplement. Before I do anything, I want to be as prepared as possible. I am also looking into some schooling for myself....say the CTEF and/or Schluterville. However, all of this costs money. Starting a new business costs money. I have to continue to support myself while expanding my knowledge/skills. I can confidently tell you that in my experience, that's a lot more than the typical contractor in this area would do. I don't want to be average or offer average services.
I have aligned myself with a realtor that I trust to help me with my quotes. If a customer is asking for an expensive material in a particular neighborhood, I can get the realtors opinion if the cost of the upgrade is not worth the resale and educate the customer. The final decision is the HO's but I feel they need to understand just because you use granite doesn't mean you just added $10k value to your home. I have even gone as far as to understand the geology of the area I work in. 45 years ago, most of the neighborhoods I currently work in used to be swamps. Since the ground is so soft in certain areas with all the 3-month-to-build cookie cutter homes going up, I steadfastly REFUSE to lay tile without uncoupling membranes.
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH....point is, I'm serious about getting into tiling as a trade and I feel my due diligence is on track. I respect your point of view but I don't feel like I'm a weekend warrior just trying to make some side job cash leaving the HO unprotected, under serviced or uninformed.

Bill_Vincent

1) I don't sell tile. The price I pay is the price the customer pays. So does that mean I should charge less for my work? try again. If they want a showroom to supply employees to do the work, they're more than welcome. If they want someone who gives a damn, come see me.

2) I didn't say anything about "a good looking" installation. I said an installation of the same quality.

3) Damage is what liability insurance is all about, no matter HOW long you're in the trade. As for recourse in replacing substandard work, what substandard work? I'm talking about getting the same money for the same quality of product, no matter how long you're in the trade!! You're talking apples and oranges.

__________________
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're probably right."

http://www.creativeceramicandmarble.com

stroventile

Angus,

You definitely sound like you have it well thought out and are serious about doing things right and having lots of options for yourself and your clients. Good luck.

Bill,

Why the reply to my post as if my original post was somehow directed at you? It was advice to angus based on HIS post. However, in response to your points.

1.)Liability is useless and you know it. Liability will not get someones floor replaced in any reasonable amount of time, certainly not in the time the customer wants it. If you have to wait for liability to handle a situation, your losing business just on lack of ability to solve problems quickly and effeciently. Insurance is a great thing to have, its not a good thing to actually have to use.

2.)If your a licensed contractor or company, you should have a basic 15-30% discount on your tile and materials from various vendor/showrooms. Why would you not make your company look better and your customers happy by passing on even 10% discount on the tile price. Then the business that showroom or vendor did with your customers is business to them from you. Win/Win situation. Do I want to help pick their tile and drag samples all over. Obviously not, I install tile. That doesn't mean I can't send them somewhere with my card to let the sales people do their thing and put in on my account which of course is paid for by customer at that time anyway. Nothing out of your pocket, but you have gained alot with your customers and the tile retailer/vendor.

diego79

Don't try coming to Florida.

The price range is anywhere between 2.00-3.00 on average - good experienced, licensed installers. I called darn near every contractor in the phone book and I have not heard of anyone charging over 4.00 dollars a sq foot here.

Yeah baby, WE LOVE FLORIDA!

__________________
Tampa Tile & Grout Cleaning

"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence,
and then success is sure".

-Mark Twain

Bill_Vincent

Stroventile-- Even when I DO supply the tile, they'll get it at cost plus a 50.00 delivery charge. The reason I don't always supply it is most people around here, even before the call me, will have already made the rounds to the major showrooms in the area and picked out their tile. If it's from one of the major lines (AO, Dal, FT, etc.), yes, I can offer to get it for them, but most of the work I do is custom, and those tiles aren't from the major lines.

Diego-- Florida is one of the few places charging like that. I lived in Homestead for about 3 years after Andrew, and it was tough to get TWO dollars a foot from most projects. If you work the high end homes, though, they're willing to pay what it takes to get it done right.

__________________
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're probably right."

http://www.creativeceramicandmarble.com

direct flooring

follow the directions on the bag of then set. And charge the same as the pro. Its the people who charge less who mess up the industry. know your sub floor & your product, every one has to start some where!